Author Topic: Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority  (Read 2170 times)

Pebcac

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« on: April 30, 2005, 08:43:55 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/04/30/dems.radio.ap/index.html

While I'm not in total disagreement that there might be a danger of tyranny by majority on this issue, what killed me was this line:  
Quote
"It sounds nearly absurd when you learn that the minority Democrats in the Senate actually represent more Americans than the majority Republicans do," Cuomo said.
While that point is, shall we say, very debatable, it's entirely moot.  Under the original form of the Constitution, senators were to be elected by the state legislatures for purposes of state representatation in the federal government.  Even with direct election, that purpose really hasn't changed all that much.  That's why each state has the same number of senators--two.  It's not about population count--that's what the House of Representatives is for.  That's where the population is directly represented at the federal level.

I would like to see the Republicans get their nominees on those benches for the simple reason that those nominees are more likely to be strict-constructionists.  However, I do not want to see one of the protections against tyranny by majority removed by any majority--one I happen to agree with, or one I don't.  Still, if one is going to speak out on an issue involving the intent of the Founders, it seems to me that one should bear in mind all aspects of that intent.  Unfortunately, this is something that politicians simply cannot do.  The only intent that is important to them is that segment which props up the current argument at hand.  Cirumspection not required, it seems.

Quote
"The Republican senators should instead start working with the Democrats to address all the serious problems of this country in the proper forums -- in the Congress and in the presidency -- leaving the judges to be judges instead of a third political branch controlled by the whim of the politicians in power," Cuomo said.
Hello, Pot?  This is Kettle....  rolleyes
Problem exists between computer and chair.

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2005, 09:15:43 AM »
Democrats controlled Congress for some 40+ years, right?  Although I agree with his point in general, I have to say this.  Sucks when the shoe's on the other foot, don't it?
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Ron

  • Guest
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2005, 10:03:48 AM »
The republicans honed the art of compromise over the years as a minority party in the house and senate.  Being the majority party in both houses still hasn't sunk in.  They haven't governed as a majority party,  they are always willing to sell us out when the dems start to whine.

Larry Woodard

  • Guest
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2005, 10:12:06 AM »
There seems to be a great deal of disinformation being spread about.

During the 1806 documenting of Senate rules by Vice-President Aaron Burr, there was a widely acknowledged error which allowed for unlimited debate: Filibusters in the Senate are not a Constitutional provision, but were introduced by accident.  As a result, a single Senator could delay vote on a bill by simply continuing talk; the ultimate in minority rights.  Under the threat of eliminating the filibuster rules altogether, a compromise change in rules was agreed to: Two-thirds of the members of the Senate could vote "cloture" to end the filibuster.

The filibuster was used effectively by Democrats to block civil rights legislation. As a result, in response to the threat of a drastic limitation of the filibuster imposed by the simple majority, rules were again modified in 1959 to allow for cloture with 2/3 present as opposed to 2/3 of the entire Senate. Further limits were agreed to in 1975 when cloture could be evoked by 3/5 of the Senate (60 senators).

In 1979, faced with a potential filibuster on his rules-change proposal, Senator Robert C. Byrd (D-WV, who now worships the filibuster as a member of the minority) raised the possibility that the U.S. Constitution provides the majority with a method for overriding the Senates cloture rule: The Constitution in article I, section 5, says that each House shall determine the rules of its proceedings.

In short, the Senate rules about filibuster, instituted by accident, are rules than can and have changed from time to time by simple majority rule. The filibuster is not unconstitutional nor is it any way required by the Constitution. It was not mandated by our Founding Fathers, and changing the rules is absolutely permitted by simple majority vote.

But note the key element of the filibuster is holding the floor by debate.  I don't hear any debate going on, I don't see bunks and porta-potties being set up in the Senate floor.  No debate, no filibuster.  This is absolute BS!

The fact of the matter is that the left can't get their agenda passed legislatively, so they depend on judicial activism to make it so.  If they can't pack the court like FDR did, they stand to remain out of power for the next generation or two.  They're in panic mode, watching their grasp on power slipping away along with the influence of the old media on public opinion: expect to see more shrill hypocritical hysteria on this subject from Reid, Pelosi, Cuomo, Kennedy, KKK Byrd and the rest.

And GoRon is dead-on.  The Republicans need to grow some stones and start acting like the majority.

Standing Wolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,978
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2005, 05:29:21 PM »
Quote
The Republicans need to grow some stones and start acting like the majority.
They should; I doubt, however, they will.

I believe there's too little to differentiate the Republicans from the representatives of the Democratic (sic) party. The former don't have the intellectual or moral courage to hurt the feelings of the latterand so both parties, working hand in hand, will continue to do the least possible good for the nation.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Guest

  • Guest
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2005, 08:37:24 PM »
Quote
Democrats controlled Congress for some 40+ years, right?  Although I agree with his point in general, I have to say this.  Sucks when the shoe's on the other foot, don't it?
We are the ones trying to get rid of the filibuster. Its our shoes that are switching around on us. We used it ourselves when our representatives were in the minority, it is a valuable tool. Getting rid of it just because we run the show now is short sighted to say the least.

Silver Bullet

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,859
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2005, 02:38:16 AM »
If the Democrats are worried about "tyranny by the majority," maybe they'll finally learn to respect the Constitution instead of constantly undercutting it via the courts.

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2005, 05:06:14 AM »
Quote from: c_yeager
We are the ones trying to get rid of the filibuster. Its our shoes that are switching around on us. We used it ourselves when our representatives were in the minority, it is a valuable tool. Getting rid of it just because we run the show now is short sighted to say the least.
I know but I was just referring to the whole "tyranny of the majority" thing.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Ron

  • Guest
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2005, 05:45:56 AM »
"We are the ones trying to get rid of the filibuster"

Nobody is trying to get rid of the fillibuster when used in its historical role in blocking legislation.

This would be a rule change to codify what has always been,  no fillibuster against judicial nominees.

RealGun

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2005, 06:42:55 AM »
Thanks for focusing the hysteria GoRon. You're right. Let's review what is really happening here.

There is an executive session and a legislative session, each with its own rules. Judges are debated and voted on in executive session. Although filibusters in executive session HAVE NOT yet been a problem, they are fully expected, both because of general obstructionism by Democrats and because Republicans actually do want to pull off some slam dunks for judicial nominations.

There is also a desire not to have political losses early in the final administration term, prematurely turning the administration into a lame duck.  Only a few months into the second term, the GOP intends to be aggressive and dominant.

There is also the anticipation of replacing one or more Supreme Court justices, renewing the battle over Rowe v Wade,  the supposed activism that enabled it, and the precedent that the Courts can make up stuff or take jurisdiction where there is none granted by Congress.

There are also, I think it is, 45 judicial positions unfilled because of obstructionism. The Republicans want to push those through, which I think is responsible. The bench openings may not be filled by anyones ideal candidate, but they need to be filled in the name of due process.

The proposal as I understand it is to allow 1000 hours of debate on a nomination, after which a vote must occur. I don't see that as a solution particularly, but it does rule out a ridiculous stalling scenario, essentially controlling who the President may nominate, allowing the minority party to suggest who they might not filibuster.

There is also a provision that nominees may not be held up in committee.

My own solution woud be to require at least one more vote than the number of majority party seats. 3/5 or 2/3 is out of the question. I don't believe in everything being decided in majority caucus, so a nominee would have to make enough sense to draw at least one minority vote. This also says that party block loyalty is not sacred. Personal integrity is sacred.

There is no proposal to rule out filibusters in legislative session.

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2005, 10:52:22 AM »
Here's a pretty good piece on this problem.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/551vzoao.asp
Break the Filibuster
From the May 9, 2005 issue: Democrats are looking to the Constitution to preserve the judicial filibuster; the Constitution isn't on their side.
by William Kristol
05/09/2005, Volume 010, Issue 32


SUDDENLY DEMOCRATS ARE WRAPPING THEMSELVES in the Constitution. Emphasizing his commitment to maintaining the filibuster as a way to stop President Bush's judicial nominees, Senate Democratic whip Richard Durbin said last week, "We believe it's a constitutional issue. . . . It's a matter of having faith in the Constitution." The trouble is, the filibuster is nowhere mentioned, or even implied, in the text of the Constitution.

Suddenly, too, European liberals are discovering the virtues of the Founding Fathers. On the same day that Durbin was confessing his faith in the Constitution, the editors of the Financial Times were urging Bill Frist to "cease and desist" his efforts to break the filibuster, imploring him to "reread the wisdom of the Federalist Papers." The trouble is, the filibuster is nowhere mentioned, or even implied, in the Federalist Papers.

What's really going on here, of course, is this: President Bush, having been elected and reelected, and with a Republican Senate majority, wants to appoint federal judges of a generally conservative and constitutionalist disposition. The Democrats very much want to block any change in the character of the federal judiciary--a branch of government they have increasingly come to cherish, as they have lost control of the others. It's a political struggle, not unlike others in American history, with both sides appealing to high principle and historical precedent.

But it happens to be the case that Republicans have the better argument with respect to the filibustering of judicial nominees. The systematic denial of up or down votes on judicial nominees is a new phenomenon. Republicans are right to say that it is the Democrats who have radically departed from customary practice.

More important, perhaps, the customary practice of not filibustering presidential nominees--whether for the judiciary or the executive branch--is not a mere matter of custom. It is rooted in the structure of the Constitution. While the filibuster of judges is not, in a judicially enforceable sense, unconstitutional, it is contrary to the logic of the constitutional separation of powers.

As David A. Crockett of Trinity University in San Antonio has explained, the legislative filibuster makes perfect sense. Article 1 of the Constitution gives each house of Congress the power to determine its own rules. Senate Rule XXII establishes the necessity of 60 votes to close off debate. With this rule, the Senate has chosen to allow 40-plus percent of its members to block legislative action, out of respect for the view that delaying, even preventing, hasty action, or action that has only the support of a narrow majority, can be a good thing. As Crockett puts it, "Congress is the active agent in lawmaking, and if it wants to make that process more difficult, it can." One might add that legislative filibusters can often be overcome by offering the minority compromises--revising the underlying legislation with amendments and the like.

There is no rationale for a filibuster, however, when the Senate is acting under Article 2 in advising and consenting to presidential nominations. As Crockett points out, here the president is "the originator and prime mover. If he wants to make the process more burdensome, perhaps through lengthy interviews or extraordinary background checks, he can." The Senate's role is to accept or reject the president's nominees, just as the president has a responsibility to accept or reject a bill approved by both houses of Congress. There he does not have the option of delay. Nor should Congress have the option of delay in what is fundamentally an executive function of filling the nonelected positions in the federal government. In other words--to quote Crockett once more--"it is inappropriate for the Senate to employ a delaying tactic normally used in internal business--the construction of legislation--in a nonlegislative procedure that originates in a coequal branch of government."

This is why the filibuster has historically not been used on nominations. This is the constitutional logic underlying 200-plus years of American political practice. This is why as recently as 14 years ago the possibility of filibustering Clarence Thomas, for example, was not entertained even by a hostile Democratic Senate that was able to muster 48 votes against him. The American people seem to grasp this logic. In one recent poll, 82 percent said the president's nominees deserve an up or down vote on the Senate floor.

They are right. History and the Constitution are on their side, and on majority leader Bill Frist's side. When the Senate returns from its recess, the majority leader should move to enact a rule change that will break the Democratic filibuster on judicial nominees, confident in doing so that he is acting--the claims of Senator Durbin and the Financial Times to the contrary notwithstanding--in accord with historical precedent and constitutional principle.

--William Kristol
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Pebcac

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
Cuomo warns of tyranny of the majority
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2005, 05:46:57 AM »
I just wanted to make something clear in case anybody was wondering.  I know that the filibuster is neither provided for nor prohibited in the Constitution.  I only agree with Cuomo in a very narrow sense, and that is that the current majority party is planning to use their majority power to change procedural rules to fit their current agenda.  That bothers me when anybody does it.  On this issue, I don't believe it's in the interest of the court system;  I see it as partisan maneuvering.  I also think the Democrats would do it in a heartbeat if they thought they could.

It disgusts me that the Democrats have filibustered judicial nominees that they know will pass a vote.  I can't understand, however, why the Republicans would allow them to "filibuster" on the easy by agreeing to close session and return the speaker to the floor the next morning.  The whole point was that you had to keep your butt on the floor and yak until either you passed out, cloture was voted, or you got your way.  The Republicans don't need to change the rules--they just need to force the clowns to go round the clock like Mr. Smith.

It's all really much ado about nothing, IMHO.  I just thought it was funny to see the Democrats try to wrap themselves in the Constitution and drone on about the Founders when they're the very ones who argue in favor of the "living Constitution" idea.
Problem exists between computer and chair.