Author Topic: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries  (Read 1540 times)

MillCreek

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Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« on: March 14, 2018, 09:22:37 AM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/upshot/united-states-health-care-resembles-rest-of-world.html?hpw&rref=upshot&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2674671

Perhaps the US is not such an outlier after all. Two areas where the US is leading the pack include paying higher prices for medical services and higher rates of poverty and obesity.

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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Angel Eyes

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2024, 01:16:31 PM »
Thread  necro: stumbled across this on X:



Obvious question: do we need all these administrators?
"... and now I want to hand it over to the president of Ukraine who has as much courage as he has determination.  Ladies and gentlemen, President Putin."
                          - Joe Biden, July 11, 2024

WLJ

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2024, 01:20:25 PM »
Bet "education" shows a similar graph
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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Northwoods

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2024, 01:36:29 PM »
Thread  necro: stumbled across this on X:



Obvious question: do we need all these administrators?

Yeah, MillCreek, do we really need you?
Formerly sumpnz

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2024, 01:54:47 PM »
Thread  necro: stumbled across this on X:



Obvious question: do we need all these administrators?

I was, and am again, one of those administrators.

Government pretty much mandates those administrators.  "Meaningful Use" meant that all practices had to get their medical records systems online.  Continued digitalizing of a nonbinary product (well being) results in diluting the product into complaint/treatment encounters.  Benefits Management alone is a nightmarish industry.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2024, 03:21:33 PM »
Government pretty much mandates those administrators.  "Meaningful Use" meant that all practices had to get their medical records systems online.  Continued digitalizing of a nonbinary product (well being) results in diluting the product into complaint/treatment encounters.  Benefits Management alone is a nightmarish industry.

"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy."
"... and now I want to hand it over to the president of Ukraine who has as much courage as he has determination.  Ladies and gentlemen, President Putin."
                          - Joe Biden, July 11, 2024

Pb

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2024, 04:50:04 PM »
Ok, so if utilization of health care is similar between the USA and some other high income countries, how do we get the price down? 

De Selby

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2024, 04:55:35 PM »
Ok, so if utilization of health care is similar between the USA and some other high income countries, how do we get the price down?

You copy what they do.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2024, 05:01:32 PM »
You copy what they do.

One of the biggest costs is of prescription drugs, and if you unilaterally make laws outlawing profits on new drug development then you get no new drug research.  Much of the First World has done this, relying on US health care costs to give the lion's share of profits to Big Pharma so they continue researching new drugs.

With no profit, R&D budgets get slashed and medicine stagnates. 
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Ben

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2024, 05:11:03 PM »
Much of the First World has done this, relying on US health care costs to give the lion's share of profits to Big Pharma so they continue researching new drugs.

Are you suggesting that Australia needs to pay their fair share?  >:D
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De Selby

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2024, 05:58:52 PM »
One of the biggest costs is of prescription drugs, and if you unilaterally make laws outlawing profits on new drug development then you get no new drug research.  Much of the First World has done this, relying on US health care costs to give the lion's share of profits to Big Pharma so they continue researching new drugs.

With no profit, R&D budgets get slashed and medicine stagnates.

There is no first world country with a public healthcare system that outlaws making a profit on drugs.

The suggestion that big pharma sells at a loss to most of the world is laughable - they sell at lower prices in other countries because their health authorities bargain prices, not as charity. In the US legislation doesn’t just enable profit - it enables gouging. That’s why prices are high.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2024, 06:07:34 PM »
Are you suggesting that Australia needs to pay their fair share?  >:D

The point is actually clownish - drug companies actively apply to get listed on the government scheme for sales here, not the other way around. Why do you think they do that? They spend money to apply for their drugs to be sold in Australia because it loses money???
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Pb

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2024, 06:10:55 PM »
You copy what they do.

Well, what do they do that is helpful?  Honest question. 

Some things other some countries do - severe wait times and care rationing for specialists- don't sit right with me. 

Is there something we can do that doesn't involve these things to lower prices?  Something has to limit consumption of medical care.

WLJ

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2024, 06:12:49 PM »
Are you suggesting that Australia needs to pay their fair share?  >:D

The point is actually clownish - drug companies actively apply to get listed on the government scheme for sales here, not the other way around. Why do you think they do that? They spend money to apply for their drugs to be sold in Australia because it loses money???

I think the emoji indicated he wasn't being serious
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Pb

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2024, 06:15:21 PM »
The point is actually clownish - drug companies actively apply to get listed on the government scheme for sales here, not the other way around. Why do you think they do that? They spend money to apply for their drugs to be sold in Australia because it loses money???

How are drugs priced in Australia?  Honest question, I have no idea.

I'm guessing once a drug is developed, manufacturing is relatively inexpensive.. so selling a drug to other non-USA countries (once the development is paid off), even at low prices can still added profit... I think you said drugs in AUS were about 1/4 the price as the USA.

The question is, how can the company make enough money to pay back the high cost of development in the first place.  I get the impression that users in the USA pay most of this, though I am uncertain of this.  If, say, the USA slaps price control laws on our drug market, and drops their prices similar to Australia, will that pay for the development of new drugs, or render them unprofitable?

Ben

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2024, 06:48:34 PM »
I think the emoji indicated he wasn't being serious

 :angel:
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WLJ

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2024, 06:56:43 PM »
Sorry, didn't mean to step on anyone's toes
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
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Ben

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2024, 07:50:08 PM »
Sorry, didn't mean to step on anyone's toes

No, I was agreeing with you.  =)
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dogmush

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2024, 08:07:12 PM »
How are drugs priced in Australia?  Honest question, I have no idea.

I'm guessing once a drug is developed, manufacturing is relatively inexpensive.. so selling a drug to other non-USA countries (once the development is paid off), even at low prices can still added profit... I think you said drugs in AUS were about 1/4 the price as the USA.

The question is, how can the company make enough money to pay back the high cost of development in the first place.  I get the impression that users in the USA pay most of this, though I am uncertain of this.  If, say, the USA slaps price control laws on our drug market, and drops their prices similar to Australia, will that pay for the development of new drugs, or render them unprofitable?


Another salient question would be what is the cost of regulatory conformance in both countries?

De Selby says that drug companies pay some amount to sell in Australia,  and I think we all know the prices for FDA approval of a new drug (excluding vaccines for novel respiratory viruses)  is significant.   How do those costs compare?  Even outside of subsidizing R and D countries can vary widely in the cost of doing business there.

Also how different countries handle drug patents can significantly affect market price (negotiated or not).

I have no idea what that info is, but it would seem to be necessary to an informed discussion on the topic.

De Selby

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2024, 09:46:09 PM »
Prices are negotiated for publicly subsidised drugs; drugs where the company doesn't want to get public funding for consumer prescriptions can be sold after they are approved. Most pharma companies go for the public benefits scheme, because people buy many more drugs from that system due to public funding.

A really detailed article on how pricing works is here, but the short version is the Government negotiates a price with the drug maker, then separately decides how much of that price it will pay for and consumers pay the difference.

This website has some details:  https://www.globallegalinsights.com/practice-areas/pricing-and-reimbursement-laws-and-regulations/australia

A succinct version of advice to private companies who come to sell a drug in Australia:

Quote
A well-planned pricing strategy must give consideration to both the clinical needs of patients and the Government’s budgetary pressures (and desire to focus upon lowest-cost comparators).  If a sponsor wishes to seek a higher price for a medicine seeking listing, this must be justifiable by reference to the available alternatives and the advantages (whether clinical or economic) of the new product seeking listing compared to alternative therapies.

Fees for getting a drug registered to be sold either privately or through the PBS are here:

https://www.tga.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-12/fees-and-charges-summary-1-July-2023.pdf
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MillCreek

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2024, 09:24:41 AM »
Yeah, MillCreek, do we really need you?

I live for the day in which we no longer need people to explain to the family how we killed Grandma in the OR. And then pay off on the lawsuit.
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

WLJ

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Re: Healthcare spending compared in the US and other countries
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2024, 09:30:33 AM »
I live for the day in which we no longer need people to explain to the family how we killed Grandma died of COVID in the OR. And then pay off on the lawsuit.

A, sort of, tongue in cheek FIFY
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi