Author Topic: A question for our European/French friends  (Read 1223 times)

Stand_watie

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A question for our European/French friends
« on: May 06, 2007, 05:15:08 PM »
You probably are better exposed to American politics than I am to Euro/French politics...Mr. (Is that 'President' now?) Sarkozy has been referred to as 'conservative' by our press, I have to assume that that term is not quite the same as the American version of 'conservative'.

Do you have any comparisons you'd draw between he and any particular American politicians that would help me better know where on our political spectrum he would fit?
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RevDisk

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2007, 05:53:38 PM »
You probably are better exposed to American politics than I am to Euro/French politics...Mr. (Is that 'President' now?) Sarkozy has been referred to as 'conservative' by our press, I have to assume that that term is not quite the same as the American version of 'conservative'.

Do you have any comparisons you'd draw between he and any particular American politicians that would help me better know where on our political spectrum he would fit?

While I'm not European, I still keep in contact with various Euro military folks.  From the low down I got, he's probably going to try economic reforms.  Mainly, lessen business restrictions.  He's for simplification of tax law, and pressed for reducing or denying social services for unemployed that turn down employment chances.  On average, he's more pro-US than most French politicians.  The UMP is the primary center-right party.  He wants to lessen restrictions on separation of church and state.

His time as Minister of the Interior was a bit mixed.  He took a fairly militant viewpoint, which has polarized opinion on him.  He pushed a fair amount of legislation to be "tough on crime" that could be seen as an infringement on various civil rights.
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Laurent du Var

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2007, 12:38:41 AM »
Sorry for the late answer.
I think somebody asked allready in the "socialist (in your Face Segolene) thread how to compare European vs. American conservatives.
I didn't answer there because I simply don't know.
Or at least not well enough to give any valuable comparisons,
I think Sarkozy could be roughly the equivalent of a Republican
but then the political system in France is quite different to yours and you certainly do not have any social democratic parties, I know of.   

Rev Disk did a good job on outlining Sarkozy's programm.
He is one of the reasons why I mostly lurk and hardly post because
somebody is often out-thinking me and almost always outwriting me as well.
You could call me a socialist for feeding of your posts and giving
back very little  grin   

Sarkozy got also  an interesting approach  towards the social security system which he wants to change into something where you would have to pay a certain amount of your health cost youself which is already the case for some people but I totally miss the discussion for the pensions. In France we have the contract of generations which means that the active part of the population is paying the retiremend money to the retired which they did back then when they were active which brings on a big problem: they didn't invest in Pensionfunds but just supported the older which in the 50 and 60 was mathematically possible but isn't anymore since it takes 4 employed people to support one of the retired and they keep on getting more and more and older and older.

Little example : you make a thousand Euros a month you'd be paying
400 Euros for the sick, the unemployed, the young and the old and this is money you'll never see again. Over all you'll be giving 800 euros to the gvmt which is processing and redistributing it at enormous cost (loss). 

When I grew up "Solidarity" and "Democracy" were the keywords but those two are not doing so well together. When the socialists got 47 percent of the votes it just means that those are the half who feed of the rest and want to be commanding the other to endlessly support them without any return. Disgusting really.

Nobody talks about it but Central Europe is bancrupt - financially, morally and as a military force non existent.   I said it before we would need a revolution and not an election.
For the moment I allow myself just to be temporarily happy with Sarkozy and see what happens....
 
     
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HankB

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2007, 04:03:00 AM »
. . . Little example : you make a thousand Euros a month you'd be paying
400 Euros for the sick, the unemployed, the young and the old and this is money you'll never see again. Over all you'll be giving 800 euros to the gvmt which is processing and redistributing it at enormous cost (loss).
1000 Euros a month isn't a high salary . . . and yet they're "giving 800 euros to the gvmt" which translates to an 80% tax rate?  shocked

If that's accurate, then why bother to work at all?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2007, 05:10:40 AM »
The definition of "conservative" in Europe varies by sex.  For men, a conservative is a man who has not been castrated.  Yet.  Female conservatives are those who would consider giving birth to more than one child, in the unfortunate event they became pregnant again.
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mountainclmbr

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2007, 06:19:42 AM »
We have so many different taxes here, I don't know my actual tax rate. There are taxes buried into many things such as telephone service, electricity and gasoline. Then there is the cost of products that have corporate taxes buried in them.

The conflict between the low population growth folks and the social services consumers will be interesting to watch.
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Laurent du Var

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2007, 06:57:42 AM »
.[/quote]1000 Euros a month isn't a high salary . . . and yet they're "giving 800 euros to the gvmt" which translates to an 80% tax rate?  shocked

If that's accurate, then why bother to work at all?
[/quote]

You hit it !

The definition of "conservative" in Europe varies by sex.  For men, a conservative is a man who has not been castrated.  Yet.  Female conservatives are those who would consider giving birth to more than one child, in the unfortunate event they became pregnant again

 grin

Not very accurate. But almost. If I would describe myself,
my wife and I are working full time whilst raising our
(two) children.

And while I'm still complete, every time I see those parasites in the suburbs revolting, burning cars just to go home afterwards to a three bedroom apartement I'm paying them to get shitty couscous prepared by their loving mamma who never worked a day in her life, can neither read nor write but brought us the joy of 7 children who are busy collecting their unemployment rent which I'm paying them again, well my backside hurts. A lot.




 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2007, 07:53:16 AM »
Laurent,

Thanks for taking my little joke in the spirit intended.  I know my analysis is, at best, greatly exaggerated. 
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The Rabbi

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2007, 08:23:44 AM »
Hey, dont knock cous-cous.  It's one of my favorite foods.
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RevDisk

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2007, 09:00:34 AM »
Sorry for the late answer.
I think somebody asked allready in the "socialist (in your Face Segolene) thread how to compare European vs. American conservatives.
I didn't answer there because I simply don't know.
Or at least not well enough to give any valuable comparisons,
I think Sarkozy could be roughly the equivalent of a Republican
but then the political system in France is quite different to yours and you certainly do not have any social democratic parties, I know of.   

We basically have a stagnent two party system, with both parties being more or less identical except for hot ticket items.  Across the entire spectrum, there's little difference.  We have legions of third parties, including some social democratic parties, but they're never going to gain power.  Occassionally you have a Bernie Sanders (social democrat) or Ron Paul (libertarian), but they tend to be marginalized.


Quote
Rev Disk did a good job on outlining Sarkozy's programm.
He is one of the reasons why I mostly lurk and hardly post because
somebody is often out-thinking me and almost always outwriting me as well.
You could call me a socialist for feeding of your posts and giving
back very little  grin   


Eh.  With discussions, we build off each other.  Nothing wrong with that.  I rather enjoy your posts actually.  Due to my current circumstances, I don't get to mix with many Euros anymore.  I did enjoy my time in Europe, even though it was mainly the unpleasant parts.   Mainly because I'm a bit of a history nut, and it was very pleasant to see historic sites outside of the books.


Quote
Sarkozy got also  an interesting approach  towards the social security system which he wants to change into something where you would have to pay a certain amount of your health cost youself which is already the case for some people but I totally miss the discussion for the pensions. In France we have the contract of generations which means that the active part of the population is paying the retiremend money to the retired which they did back then when they were active which brings on a big problem: they didn't invest in Pensionfunds but just supported the older which in the 50 and 60 was mathematically possible but isn't anymore since it takes 4 employed people to support one of the retired and they keep on getting more and more and older and older.


This isn't extremely dissimilar from the US social security scheme.  You pay in your entire life, and get a marginal percentage back.  Theoretically, it would gain interest, but basically at or less than cost of living increases.  We're going to have significant issues as well over the next few decades with an aging population.


Quote
Little example : you make a thousand Euros a month you'd be paying
400 Euros for the sick, the unemployed, the young and the old and this is money you'll never see again. Over all you'll be giving 800 euros to the gvmt which is processing and redistributing it at enormous cost (loss). 


Depending on your state, it's only slightly better here.  We're just better at hiding taxes all over the place.  You have a federal tax, state tax, possibly multiple township taxes, social security taxes, Medicaid taxes, sales taxes (6% in Pennsylvania), product taxes (gasoline is the largest), service taxes (internet, toll roads, cell phones), sin taxes (alcohol, tobacco, etc), death taxes, etc.  Companies have to pay wage taxes on employees, so even though it is not listed in your pay stub there's more taxes on your wages.  It's probably between 50-60% total taxes, depending on your state and spending habits.


Quote
When I grew up "Solidarity" and "Democracy" were the keywords but those two are not doing so well together. When the socialists got 47 percent of the votes it just means that those are the half who feed of the rest and want to be commanding the other to endlessly support them without any return. Disgusting really.

Nobody talks about it but Central Europe is bancrupt - financially, morally and as a military force non existent.   I said it before we would need a revolution and not an election.
For the moment I allow myself just to be temporarily happy with Sarkozy and see what happens....

While I wouldn't underestimate the combined potential of all the Central European militaries (prior to political constraints), economically the region is not in good shape.  A lot of reforms are required.  Eastern Europe is much worse off due to the decades of Soviet occupation, but they're making significant progress.  It's possible to make things better, just requires pragmatic choices.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Stand_watie

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2007, 05:47:34 PM »
Quote
Nobody talks about it but Central Europe is bancrupt - financially, morally and as a military force non existent.   I said it before we would need a revolution and not an election.

Laurent, you could for the most part say the thing about New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, Miami...well you get the picture. I suppose it's the same for Rome, London and Paris, although I haven't experienced that firsthand.


I've actually met a few genuinely French (as opposed to ethnically French, of which I've known a million or so) folks and have been pleasantly surprised at how they differed from our stereotypes. When you start to get unhappy with Americans bashing the French, try to keep in mind that most are merely bashing a stereotype. Some others (I've been guilty of this) are merely doing it in fun - as in telling a pollock joke even when you don't actually believe that Poles are intellectually inferior to others.
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"Never again"

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LAK

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Re: A question for our European/French friends
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2007, 11:56:47 PM »
Sarkozy is a George W Bush "conservative". No more conservative than any of the other WWF stars in the running - here or in europa.

He has no more intention of rolling back eurosocialism in France than he has of supporting France's withdrawl from the socialist-hearted EU. He'll put on a "hard" show on some things for effect - like the rioting thugs etc. But he won't be changing France's general course in Europa.

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