ruh oh

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

so tell me then  how this town and others discovering that their cause carries a higher price than they can pay is not indicative of what we invite if we try it on a grand scale  i'm listening  so far not hearing much

[Perd Hapley]

I'm not going to argue that these economic horrors did not occur.  Perhaps they really did.  Perhaps they were really caused by measures against illegal immigration.  Perhaps such terrible things will really occur nationwide.  I'm not an economist, so I would have a hard time investigating such details. 

What I will tell you is that I won't be frightened or bought off by stories like this.  We have a right, and our govt. has a duty, to regulate our borders.  And I would see them regulated in our best interest.  If that means immigration laws should be relaxed to allow more foreigners in, so be it.  If that means the laws should be tightened, I'm fine with that, too.  Whatever the case may be, foreigners should never be allowed to enter our country by breaking our laws.  Can we at least agree on that? 

[macadore]

If you kick all the illegal immigrants out, then someone has to clean the bathrooms, work in restaurants and mow lawns.

Who would do these jobs?  Native-born teenagers who did these jobs 20 years ago and now sitting on the couch getting fat and bitching about how no one is giving them enough.

I don't see how America can work without illegal immigration, but am willing to listen.

I disagree with the comment about naive born teenagers. When my son was 16 he went to work at a fast food chain for more than minimum wage. By the time he was out of high school, he was making $18.00 per hour. Native born teenagers won't do those jobs because they can get better jobs. That is the same reason the rest of us won't.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

yea strangly enough i'm a law and order guy  problem i have is hack politiciams make stupid laws. i advocate lining them all up by 3's  have the threes  step forward to be shot  then explaining to those lefty that we ain't happy and there will be another evaluation in 6 months. might get a lil real performance.
some sage member of mensa claimed he wouldn't break the law/cross a border illegally to better his families life. hes a fool. i can assure you i would. i would kill to do it.  and its foolish to think someone else wouldn't. we can fabtasize about a working fence or puff and strut about arming and holding the line but those are poor options  set us up to fail in a way that makes the war on some drugs look like a win. our failure to act has caused things to get to the point where some good folks are real hard pressed and driven to take action.  with consequences and tragic results i don't think they are ready for.

[Perd Hapley]

If I were a poor Mexican, I might go wet-back myself.  Don't make it right.  Don't mean it should be legal to cross another country's border whenever you want. 

See, I tried to degrade myself to your level of offensively careless writing.  Couldn't quite go that far. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you aware how the quotas work?  how you could legally get here from there?  check it out

[Perd Hapley]

I'm not sure what you are saying. 

I was saying that, were I a poor Mexican, I might cross the border illegally myself.  But that doesn't mean it would be right to do so. 

[Archie]

So far, there's been two things completely ignored in this particular discussion.

One: the town's fiscal problems come in part from 'lawsuits'.  What lawsuits?  Is the city being sued for the laws it passed?  On what grounds are the suits filed?  Are these just more harrassment funded by those of the MoveOn or Cindy Sheehan ilk?

How much money has the city saved from lowered police and incarceration costs?  (Never enough to pay for lawyers, obviously...)

Two:  How much do illegal aliens cost this nation?  Is anyone aware that after the toilets are cleaned and so forth, each illegal alien costs the taxpayers of the U. S. some ten to twenty thousand dollars in tax support each year?  So how does that assist the economy of the nation?


Cassandra's daddy does have one valid point.  Mexico - for one - has so many illegals working in the U. S. because the economy of Mexico is so wretched.  My last information indicates 40% unemployment and massive underemployment - getting paid dirt wages for just about anything.  So, as long as Mexicans are starving and the 'land of opportunity' is right next door, they'll come. 

By the way, Mexico's poor economy has one and only one underlying factor, the corruption of the Mexican government as an institution. 

So, what to do? 

The obvious answer is to annex Mexico, fire the government and build a new country on the site.  However, that would cause other problems.  Of course, if we suggested this openly, the leftists in the U. S. would pass enough bricks to build that silly wall we keep talking about.

[roo_ster]

the silence from anyone vis a vis one of the early towns that attempted anti immigrant laws reversing their position is amusing. if the results on a small scale hurt so bad so quick what do you guys emote a large scale application will do?

Any change in circumstances brings economic swirl.  There will always be a period of time when re-action lags action. 

Also, it is not surprising that those who benefited most from illegals (employers of illegals and those merchants who catered to them) make more noise than those who were hurt by the illegals' presence.  Two factors are involved:
1. Concentrated benefits and dispersed costs of illegals
2. Reportage of crimes by illegals that did NOT happen as a result of their recent absence is notoriously scarce

The thing about illegal aliens is the relatively small amount their labor actually contributes to our economy.  For instance, the cost of the labor that goes into agricultural produce with a heavy illegal presence is dwarfed by the sales tax paid on those goods by the end user.  Giving illegals the boot and doubling the cost of labor would barely be felt by Joe T. Consumer.


Oh, and one more thing: 

c-daddy, your 2007-09-28, 16:51:55 post left a slime trail on my monitor:

yes  but the downsides have to be real. not reprocessed sturmfront drivel

[borat_voice]Nice*!  I have to remember that technique.  Try to associate those on other side of issue with group of disrepute...  Very nice!  Would you prefer to be slimed as NAMBLA rag-man, jack booted thug, or puppy-stomper?  Oh, I know you are none of those things and do not sympathize with them.  That's not point.  Point would be triumph in debate by tossing enough --how do you say?-- feces at those on the other side, thereby smearing them and degrading debate venue.  High five!  It sure is easier than bringing data to the table.    Goodbye.  Jenqui![/borat_voice]


If you have any facility with the search function here or at THR, you can find plenty of hard data & analysis documenting the downsides in posts I have made on this topic.


* When reading, imagine the words being read by Borat:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JFVN59sR4lY
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NvQScRuZj9s&mode=related&search=

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i debunked the "crime stats" on thr at least once.

[Manedwolf]

i debunked the "crime stats" on thr at least once.

How? By disbelieving them?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

nah that would be too easy 
in a nut shell there is much noise generated on certain real classy websites about illegals constituting 35 percent of the prison pop.  swure sounds ominous but as often is the case statistics need examination. if you take the number of these scary folks who are imprisoned for nothing other than immigration offenses the number drops dramatically. as a sise effect if you look at the percentage of latinos who are jailed for real crimes(things that would be a crime if they were born here. ) a funny thing happens they are under represented percentage wise. as a matter of fact a less myopic appraisal reveals that haoles are over represented and in certain areas greatly so. child molesters are extremely caucasian. so much so that a campaign to eliminate baby rapers could tout eliminating pale men as a methodology. sometimes it fun to trace how a story or legend makes its way from the worst sleazy websites to the ones that labor to maintain a veneer

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i used doj stats and in one post used the state of calif prison stats   search some of the numerous closed threads on immigrant fear and loathing to find the more detailed posts

[roo_ster]

I never crunched prison stats or crime stats.  What is nearest & dearest to my heart is tax dollars, since I pay a lot of them.

Go ahead, search.  Or, do you not think that consumption of taxes and the extraction thereof are a "downside?"

Still leaving a slime trail in your wake, I see...

search some of the numerous closed threads on immigrant fear and loathing to find the more detailed posts

Nice.

[MechAg94]

I don't think I ever said we should stop immigration, we just have to do something to eliminate illegal immigration and turn it into legal immigration.  IMO, blanket amnesty for those already here doesn't seem like a good answer.  It may come to that I guess.

[ilbob]

There are reasons why it is so hard to get a handle on the illegal immigrant problem. One of them is that there just are not enough Americans to do the work that the illegals do at a price that is acceptable to those paying the bill. Thats is why business owners are not real keen on enforcing the immigration laws.

Democrats want the extra votes they bring in.

[Manedwolf]

There are reasons why it is so hard to get a handle on the illegal immigrant problem. One of them is that there just are not enough Americans to do the work that the illegals do at a price that is acceptable to those paying the bill. Thats is why business owners are not real keen on enforcing the immigration laws.

Democrats want the extra votes they bring in.

That would explain why Spitzer wants to give illegals drivers' licenses in NY, probably as a favor to Hillary.

What's the first thing you need to vote?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/apmethods/apstory?urlfeed=D8S3BA2O0.xml

gotta love the genius supervisor who doesn't see it as a bad thing