Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)

[Iain]

You pointed out examples of Christians doing bad things.
When a Christian does a bad thing, people criticize Christianity.
What do Christians do? We denounce the bad act.
In some cases (think the Amish school shooting) we not only pray for those hurt, and hope for the best, we actively send aid to them. The Amish VICTIMS went so far as to help the murderers family!

Not quite.

SS criticism was of the article and the response to it. Headlines could fairly regularly exist about nutjob religious loons, the latest British serial killer is or was a devout Catholic. We regularly accuse the media of irresponsibility, the possibility exists that this headline would be seen this way - if it wasn't about muslims.

Christians will only denounce a bad act where they feel that act is linked to, or could be construed as being part of, Christianity. Thus, if a man were to quote the relevant old testament passage whilst beating a homosexual to death, or stoning his adulterous wife - would you apologise?

It's not your responsibility. That isn't your Christianity. It isn't Christianity. There are those who would claim that it is your responsibility, that it is part of the Christian tradition. You might call them ignorant Christian bashers.

[gunsmith]

SS, nit pick semantics all you like...you still come across as a person defending the unthinkable
to westerners, the killing of female family members because of irrational control issues.

Answer this question?

How do we stop it? Where are all those femminist protesters now?

Honor killings happen in these countries despite religion, not because of it

Yes, maybe that is true, but nowadays Christianity is very much a minority in those countries, also I never hear
of honor killings by Christians from the middle east when they move to western countries but I do
hear of them by Muslims.
This is not meant to bash, not at all! I just want to know why so that I may find a way to make it stop.

[De Selby]

How do we stop it? Where are all those femminist protesters now?

I thought I had answered this-in the countries where this is a problem, there are no unsanctioned protests of any kind.  Protesting is likely to result in being shot/beaten/tortured by the police.  The more hard core Islamist political parties have made a point of trying to make examples of the men who commit this crime-but those parties are mostly illegal, and mostly not in power, so their impact is limited.  The dictatorships in the region mostly do not care about women's rights or anything else, so instead of paying for an anti-honor killing campaign, they spend it on a new ferrarri or some similar luxury item.

Yes, maybe that is true, but nowadays Christianity is very much a minority in those countries, also I never hear
of honor killings by Christians from the middle east when they move to western countries but I do
hear of them by Muslims.

That's because Christianity never makes the headline if someone does this and is Christian-it only makes the headline when it's a Muslim.  But it most definitely happens.  It's just that when a Christian does it, you will not read "Christian kills his wife in honor killing", you'll read "Love triangle murder case" or something more appropriate to what actually happened.  And that's how it should be with this case as well.

I'm sorry, but I don't see ANY sense in which I'm defending this atrocious behavior.  What on earth is in my posts that suggests that I'm defending this practice, and how can I possibly be more clear about my view that it is murder, plain and simple?

[Len Budney]

I'm sorry, but I don't see ANY sense in which I'm defending this atrocious behavior.  What on earth is in my posts that suggests that I'm defending this practice, and how can I possibly be more clear about my view that it is murder, plain and simple?

It's clear that you're not defending this behavior. However, in the US today the conventional way to condemn the behavior is to condemn Islam as well. Because you condemn the behavior, but don't condemn Islam, you "come across as an apologist."

If you mention that Iranian mullahs condemned 9/11 as a crime, or that there are fatwas against Bin Laden, or that Bin Laden's motivations are political rather than religious... WHAMMO! You'll again be called an apologist for terror.

--Len.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The crucial element that you and SS are ignoring (deliberately, I think) is that, as best we can tell based on the information we have now, Islam contributed to this murder.  Islam provided the motive and the justification.  The man's Muslim faith is mentioned in the article because without it, the murder probably wouldn't have been committed.  It is a relevant aspect of the story.

Islam is motivating the murder of women all over the globe, and the trend shows no signs of stopping.  Deny it all you want, ignore it all you want, try your best to confuse the issue with other irrelevancies.  It's still true. 

But hey, you can name a few peaceful Muslims, so that means all Muslims are always peaceful all the time.  The Muslim faith is beyond reproach.  Right?

[Manedwolf]

Bin Laden's motivations are political rather than religious

False. To extremists, the Islamic faith and government are the same thing.

What part of "Islamic State" is unclear?

The really ironic thing is that the religion is being eaten from within by the violent extremists, whose practices are spreading like wildfire. Even now, in many countries, if a "moderate" Muslim makes a peep or tries to leave the religion, (apostate!!!), the extremists will summarily kill them.

If current trends continue, the extremists will become all that's left of the religion, and they will have to be destroyed to preserve civilization. Unless the "moderates" fight back and fight back hard, instead of being silent about the extremists while fighting those who condemn then instead...that's what will happen.

[MechAg94]

SS, Why can't simply agree that this was a barbarous act.  Why can't just say it was not supported by Islamic teaching and leave it at that.  I don't think you would get a lot of argument if you simply defended Islamic teachings.  You had to go dredge up some past acts done by Christians and try to turn this into a "Which Religion is Worse" argument. 

I don't have an issue with your attempts to defend Islam, but Why can't seem to do it without trying to tear down other religions.  Why is that?  Why can't you defend Islam on its own merit without even mentioning other religions?  I guess that would be too difficult for you. 

[MechAg94]

SS, if some Pro-Lifer (to use a hypothetical example) was to kill a doctor in the name of his faith, I seriously doubt you would have people on here dredge up this article just so they can say "But Islam is bad also". 

[Len Budney]

The crucial element that you and SS are ignoring (deliberately, I think) is that, as best we can tell based on the information we have now, Islam contributed to this murder.

KKK members are usually church-goers. So does Christianity "contribute" to their lynchings? Remember that like the father in question, they will cite the Bible in justification, and blather about how "God made three races," etc., etc.

But hey, you can name a few peaceful Muslims, so that means all Muslims are always peaceful all the time.  The Muslim faith is beyond reproach.  Right?

You realize that there are one billion Muslims in the world, right? If only "a few" were peaceful, we'd be looking at the extinction of the species by now.

--Len.

[MechAg94]

Also, just for accuracy's sake, this comment below was the ONLY comment made before SS's first post that could be construed as a criticism of Islam.  In fact, it was a criticism of the action.  I think SS is working on a short fuse. 

Ah, yes.

"Honor killing".

Welcome to the 6th century, Canada.

[Len Budney]

SS, Why can't simply agree that this was a barbarous act.

Er, um, he did. As he points out, he did so in every post in this thread. He merely took offense that people felt compelled to condemn not only the act, but his religion along with it.

It's fair to put the shoe on the other foot and see how you like it: "White supremacists quote the Bible. Therefore, Christianity sucks."

--Len.

[MechAg94]

The crucial element that you and SS are ignoring (deliberately, I think) is that, as best we can tell based on the information we have now, Islam contributed to this murder.

KKK members are usually church-goers. So does Christianity "contribute" to their lynchings? Remember that like the father in question, they will cite the Bible in justification, and blather about how "God made three races," etc., etc.

But hey, you can name a few peaceful Muslims, so that means all Muslims are always peaceful all the time.  The Muslim faith is beyond reproach.  Right?

You realize that there are one billion Muslims in the world, right? If only "a few" were peaceful, we'd be looking at the extinction of the species by now.

--Len.

Yeah, but do we go around dredging up articles about honor killings and Muslim murderers in an attempt to say "other people do bad things too!"?  No we don't.  We simply say the KKK are hateful fools and are not justified by Christianity at all.  You see, it is in fact possible to defend your religion against those arguments without also attacking other religions. 

What would be more useful in this discussion is some posts about the historical background of "honor killings" and why this is still considered the right thing to do by some people. 

[MechAg94]

SS, Why can't simply agree that this was a barbarous act.

Er, um, he did. As he points out, he did so in every post in this thread. He merely took offense that people felt compelled to condemn not only the act, but his religion along with it.

It's fair to put the shoe on the other foot and see how you like it: "White supremacists quote the Bible. Therefore, Christianity sucks."

--Len.

Len, read the posts and please point out who said "Islam Sucks" as you put it.  No one condemned his religion.  He flew off the handle way to early for that on the 4th or 5th post.  I think he was just carrying over arguments from other threads.  You might find a few quotes later that were posted in reaction, but not before. 

[Len Budney]

Yeah, but do we go around dredging up articles about honor killings and Muslim murderers in an attempt to say "other people do bad things too!"?  No we don't.

Not usually, no. But suppose that the person starting the thread about a KKK lynching were a Muslim. How would we respond in that case? We both know I think.

What would be more useful in this discussion is some posts about the historical background of "honor killings" and why this is still considered the right thing to do by some people. 

Agreed. Perhaps SS can contribute something on that. But it's certainly understandable why he feels a bit defensive.

--Len.

[MechAg94]

I guess I just don't consider the KKK to be a religious based or justified by religion.  They hate everyone.  They may try to justify hating one group, but I always thought it was a weak argument. 

I think my Pro-Lifer murder is a better example as there were a few nuts causing problems not too long ago.  My pastor talked about one case of a guy who killed a doctor.  He slammed the guy pretty hard and pointed out why he was wasn't justified.  "Crusader arrogance" was a term he used sometimes, though I can't remember if he used it for that case.  He didn't mention any other religion though. 

What the father in Canada did was wrong.  I, personally, would like to read more discussion about honor killings and the why and where.  This Islam vs Christianity defensiveness gets old fast. 

[gunsmith]

SS, sure protest in middle eastern countries can be put down, with force by the gov't.
Recently though, students in Iran have protested gov't policy.

But where, in Canada,USA and other western countries are left leaning orgs like NOW
& code pink, "answer" workers world etc.  They protest to shut down gitmo and free mumia at the drop of a hat, but never speak up for oppressed young women and gays (oppressed by Islamic traditions).

Wayne Sheppard, the gay guy killed in Wyoming had tons of people protesting for him, why wont the same people protest Saudi Arabia's treatment of women and gays? or Egypt?

If a nutcase goes and kills an abortion doc, the left groups will absolutley(SIC) protest.
Why cant they protest or speak up for this young women?

They were all over it in the 80's when the Soviets were in Afghanistan!  Spartacus, workers world and all the abcd left wing groups were protesting Islamic religious fundamentalist barbaric treatment of women, now, because The Republican party went into Afghanistan, all of a sudden the guys they hated in the 80's are now untouchable.

The left protested "honor killing" in the 80's when the Soviets were in Afghanistan, but now, any ally against "the neo cons" is their best friend.

[griz]

Also, just for accuracy's sake, this comment below was the ONLY comment made before SS's first post that could be construed as a criticism of Islam.  In fact, it was a criticism of the action.  I think SS is working on a short fuse. 

Ah, yes.

"Honor killing".

Welcome to the 6th century, Canada.

I'm afraid I have to disagree.  The title of the post indicates that religion was the problem.  If the subject line said "Man kills daughter over proper dress", then it would be about the senslessness of the murder and I would agree with you.

[Iain]

gunsmith - seems to me you are erecting a giant strawman.

[Len Budney]

I guess I just don't consider the KKK to be a religious based or justified by religion.  They hate everyone.

But they claim to be. And they don't hate WASPs, unless those WASPs are "race traitors." And SS feels just as you do: he doesn't consider the father in question to be "religious based or justified by religion" either, even though the murderer claims to be.

I think my Pro-Lifer murder is a better example as there were a few nuts causing problems not too long ago.  My pastor talked about one case of a guy who killed a doctor.

That's a fair analogy too. And SS's imam would condemn the murderer in this thread.

What the father in Canada did was wrong.  I, personally, would like to read more discussion about honor killings and the why and where.  This Islam vs Christianity defensiveness gets old fast. 

Sure. It's understandable though; the jingoism in America right now is thick enough to spread on a bagel.

--Len.

[Len Budney]

But where, in Canada,USA and other western countries are left leaning orgs like NOW & code pink, "answer" workers world etc.  They protest to shut down gitmo and free mumia at the drop of a hat, but never speak up for oppressed young women and gays (oppressed by Islamic traditions).

Fair question. Though that's not SS's problem, unless he's a member of NOW. The answer is obvious, I think--and SS already gave it. Protesting injustice in Dubai is dangerous. Protesting injustice in the US is fairly safe. The lefties like protesting, but they don't like danger.

--Len.

[gunsmith]

Code Pink and "answer" won't protest about it though, if some one does protest it, watch for them to side with daddy dearest.

[Iain]

Dude, really. Really?

It seems your opinion of 'leftists' is just one big strawman.

[roo_ster]

Ian:

Protesting here in the 'States is as close to a risk-free proposition as can be found on this here Earth.  You can protest anything, nearly anywhere & nearly anytime with little or no risk to self.

Yet, The political feminists produce not a peep in protest of the savagery against women and homosexuals in the Middle East. 

[Matthew Carberry]

The thread title should have emphasized the "honor killing" aspect, which is in fact barbaric and tribal and thus 6th Century and does in fact occur in a lot of other religions including Christian and Hindu communities.  Almost all of it is centered in tribal Asia and Africa, where Western-style civilization was a thin veneer applied over centuries of savagery.

The more you look into "honor cultures", the more grateful you'll be that it is one more thing the West grew out of long ago.  These honor cultures are what we are truly fighting against.  Even if Islam never came to be, these primitive screwheads would be jealous and afraid of the modern Westernized world.

[gunsmith]

It seems your opinion of 'leftists' is just one big strawman.

My opinion of leftist comes from being one for over 20 years in NYC.