Author Topic: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)  (Read 16621 times)

El Tejon

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2007, 04:31:55 PM »
Why would Leftists protest "honor killings" or the murder of homosexuals in the Middle East?

Remember the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  The United States is the enemy of the Middle East thus the Left is a friend to the Middle East.  Which I find ironic as the Leftists will be the first to have their throats cut if the radicals in the Middle East prevail.
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2007, 04:55:25 PM »
I, personally, would like to read more discussion about honor killings and the why and where.  This Islam vs Christianity defensiveness gets old fast. 

It makes for interesting (albeit frightening and disgusting) reading:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2003/may/clpub.asp

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0214/p07s02-wome.html

There's more out there ... lots more. You don't have to dig very deep to find out more about it than you ever wanted to know.
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De Selby

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2007, 05:56:56 PM »
Hawkmoon,

Yes, it is intereting reading indeed.  I would like to highlight some of the things in your articles:

From the CS monitor:

Quote
But Zahra's murder  in part because it happened in the capital and not a rural area  has compelled Syria's grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, to publicly condemn the crime, calling for the first time for the immediate protection of girls at risk and for legal reform on the basis that such crimes are un-Islamic.

From gendercide: 
Quote
Most "honour" killings of women occur in Muslim countries, the focus of this case study; but it is worth noting that no sanction for such murders is granted in Islamic religion or law. And the phenomenon is in any case a global one.

And from the NGC:
Quote
In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.

"In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."


I guess all those articles are "eye opening" because, according the logic being used here, they must be defending honor killing, since like me, they noted that it has no basis in Islam and that it cuts across religions and cultures as a phenomenon.  Does that mean Hawkmoon gave us a list of articles that are "apologizing for murder"? 

And just look-the head Muslim in a country with mostly Muslims condemns this as un-Islamic.  No one noticed that though; just the killing and that it was Muslims involved.  I guess that's proof that as a Muslim I'm partly to blame, or that Islam is? Or not.

MechAg,

Note that I am not here saying "Christianity is bad because Christians off their pregnant wives in record numbers!" or any similarly ridiculous thing.  What I am pointing out is that when this crime of honor killing occurs (and it does) in places where the parties aren't Muslim, it is reported fairly-as the result of domestic violence and violence against women, and it is not identified with the religion of the murderer, even when the murderer is religious.  That is the right way to deal with these crimes, since they have no basis in anyone's religion-Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. 

But when a Muslim commits this crime, Islam is automatically in the headline, on the faulty presumption that being Muslim has something to do with being prone to murder one's family.  It is a preposterous assumption, and it gets made only with regard to Muslims-even when the crime committed is identical to a crime commonly committed by non-Muslims.  That is unfair treatment and hype on the part of the media, and if Christians were routinely treated this way, you can bet that they'd rightfully be up in arms about it.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

gunsmith

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2007, 06:54:12 PM »
I'm an old coot and have been around a few blocks, I recall the protest over the Shah
when he came for cancer treatment in NYC, lots of protest against him AND the hostage takers.
As a young "rad/lib" I generally sided with the Iranian hostage takers. I viewed the Shah
as a CIA puppet that was oppressing us kids....and I loved Iranian college girls  grin
I was pretty dismayed that the Islamonazi's took over the Iranian revolution and turned it into
an Islamic (so called) revolution. I've read a ton of Idries Shah's books on Sufi's and am familiar with
the great Persian writings. Throughout the 1980's I protested every single war by Reagan and Bush (41).
When Clinton came around I thought it was gonna be better all I got was gun control, increased federal death penalties, cigars in strange places and war....oh yeah...the great cutting off of federal funds for welfare moms.
Things that if an R did would have thousands in the streets!
The talking heads of the day would say "Clinton is the best Republican President we've ever had"
And they were serious.

I didn't come to my conclusions about leftist because of not knowing anything about them, I got to where I am today by knowing them all to well.

Why in the world can't the lefties protest and march for Aqsa Parvez  when they can for Anita Hill?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2007, 07:03:04 PM »
Keep it up, SS. It is beautifully ironic how your apologetic efforts have exactly the opposite effect! I love it!  Encore! Encore! laugh

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2007, 08:01:22 PM »
Quote
But Zahra's murder  in part because it happened in the capital and not a rural area  has compelled Syria's grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, to publicly condemn the crime, calling for the first time for the immediate protection of girls at risk and for legal reform on the basis that such crimes are un-Islamic.

Why is it necessary for prominent Muslim leaders to remind their people that murdering female family members is wrong?  Hmm...?

De Selby

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2007, 08:57:53 PM »
Quote
But Zahra's murder  in part because it happened in the capital and not a rural area  has compelled Syria's grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, to publicly condemn the crime, calling for the first time for the immediate protection of girls at risk and for legal reform on the basis that such crimes are un-Islamic.

Why is it necessary for prominent Muslim leaders to remind their people that murdering female family members is wrong?  Hmm...?

Because this one lives in a state with rampant poverty and lots of places with little education-sort of like how it's necessary for Priests in Latin America to remind people that kidnapping and terrorism are crimes, and that torture isn't okay.  It's not necessary, it's something religious Muslims do-they try to make where they live a better place by speaking out on abuses and crimes. 

I like how you set that up with your question though:

If Muslims don't condemn it, then they are "silently complicit" in a crime that "must be supported by Islam" because they don't condemn it.

If they do condemn it, "well, Islam must be partly responsible, otherwise why do they need to say anything?".

Here's an idea: maybe religious leaders in Islam (like Christianity) speak from their religious viewpoint to correct whatever moral failings they see in their societies-and that's why in places where honor killing is a problem they condemn it on religious grounds (despite the indifference and violently anti-religious attitudes of their governments), and why preachers in America condemn crimes that are commonly committed in America. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2007, 08:59:32 PM »
Keep it up, SS. It is beautifully ironic how your apologetic efforts have exactly the opposite effect! I love it!  Encore! Encore! laugh

You know, I was happy to read that thread where you came around and realized that abortion is wrong.

I eagerly await a thread from you recognizing that genocide committed against other religions is wrong, past and future.  It'd be nice if you were as upset about the holocaust as you are about Muslims continuing to live their religion.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

gunsmith

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2007, 11:03:02 PM »


The left wont protest this, and the only reason why is it doesn't fit their agenda, like it did in the 1980's when the Soviets were the ones against honor killing.

The silence of the feminists.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2007, 01:20:52 AM »
The big problem many progressives seem to have, in my experience, is they get trapped between their natural moral outrage at how horrific such things are and their sincere belief in normative relativism.

The minute someone, as a progressive, starts criticizing things like honor killings, genital mutilation, widow immolation, subjugation of women, female infanticide and the like, and it is then pointed out to them that those activities are not only illegal in the West and not condoned by the "civilized" religions in other regions but are, conversely, often given tacit acceptence and/or open approval in "primitive" honor societies and tribal cultures, that progressive is stuck with either admitting to hypocrisy or acknowledging that some cultures and traditions are indeed "better", by any rational measure, than others.

Blows their whole "everybody is the same deep down and it is somehow our fault they don't like us and everybody's culture has something worth contributing to mankind" mantra right out of the water.

There's civilization and there's savagery, one has fought bloody intranecine battles to improve itself and continues to do so by allowing internal dissent and change and one that says "this is how it was and this is how it will remain, to challenge the status quo is to be destroyed or driven out".
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280plus

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2007, 01:45:28 AM »
Nice hoochie hoops...  laugh
Avoid cliches like the plague!

El Tejon

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2007, 02:44:13 AM »
care, the Left has always been in love with the Noble Savage, in many different forms.
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Len Budney

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2007, 03:49:22 AM »
Jim Quinn (our own home-grown right-wing radio host) brought up this incident today. He commented, "The man was charged with murder. If radical Islamists get their way, in the future that won't happen. Muslim enclaves around the world--like the US and Canada--will be put under sharia law. Monsters like this won't be charged with a crime; they'll be given a gold star and a falafel!" Discussion at FreeRepublic is all in the same vein, with a heaping helping of "headchoppers" and "death cults" and so on.

Out of curiosity I checked what the folks at DU had to say. They ranged from one comment like the above to a couple making the killer into the victim (no surprise there), but most correctly called the crime a crime without blaming it on Islam.

This thread is nothing as bad as the one at FR, but not as balanced as (many of the posts at) DU. My point? When conservatives bring the subject up, it's a safe bet what their general perspective is. If I were a Muslim I'd be on the defensive from the get-go.

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Manedwolf

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2007, 03:54:41 AM »
Dammit, people here just will not accept the truth. NO, it was NOT just a crime not related to religion.

Quote
Friends and classmates of a 16-year-old girl who police say was murdered by her devout Muslim father in a Toronto suburb told local media Tuesday she was killed for not wearing a hijab.

She was KILLED for NOT COVERING HER FREAKING HEAD!

What part of that is not clear? How is that NOT related to the extremist flavor of A RELIGION!

MechAg94

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2007, 05:06:01 AM »
MechAg,

Note that I am not here saying "Christianity is bad because Christians off their pregnant wives in record numbers!" or any similarly ridiculous thing.  What I am pointing out is that when this crime of honor killing occurs (and it does) in places where the parties aren't Muslim, it is reported fairly-as the result of domestic violence and violence against women, and it is not identified with the religion of the murderer, even when the murderer is religious.  That is the right way to deal with these crimes, since they have no basis in anyone's religion-Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. 

But when a Muslim commits this crime, Islam is automatically in the headline, on the faulty presumption that being Muslim has something to do with being prone to murder one's family.  It is a preposterous assumption, and it gets made only with regard to Muslims-even when the crime committed is identical to a crime commonly committed by non-Muslims.  That is unfair treatment and hype on the part of the media, and if Christians were routinely treated this way, you can bet that they'd rightfully be up in arms about it.

SS, You have said this many times on many thread, but always after you try to demean Christianity in order to deflect criticism off Islam. 

In this particular case, the headline fits because it was by all appearances that man's religious ideas that lead to what he did.  Whether that paints all Muslims as bad is another argument that I don't think anyone was making. 

It still falls back to one of my original quesitons.  Why must you seek to tear down Christianity in order to defend Islam?  You started off the quote above with that same BS.  Why?  I could understand it if someone was telling you that Christianity was better.  I have seen that implied on other threads, but not this one. 

You say you don't like people painting Muslims with a broad brush, then you do it to Christians just to provoke an argument.  Practice what you preach. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Len Budney

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2007, 05:34:42 AM »
She was KILLED for NOT COVERING HER FREAKING HEAD!

By an insane person. Religion, namely Islam, was the fixation of his insanity. Just like Christianity is the fixation of JW parents who let their children die rather than receive a blood transfusion, or those people in the south who dance with snakes, etc. The question isn't whether Islam was involved, but whether it's to blame. Was the Republican party to blame for that guy who tried to crash his airplane into the Clinton White House? Is Catholicism to blame for murdered abortionists?

SS argues that the insanity is part of the murderer's Pakistani culture, which is a tribal "honor culture" predating Islam. Non-muslim Indians don't wear hijabs--but they did have a custom of burning widows alive on their husband's funeral pyres, until the British outlawed the practice (suttee). They still have Hindu "honor killings" for inter-caste marriages.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2007, 07:30:00 AM »
Quote
But Zahra's murder  in part because it happened in the capital and not a rural area  has compelled Syria's grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, to publicly condemn the crime, calling for the first time for the immediate protection of girls at risk and for legal reform on the basis that such crimes are un-Islamic.

Why is it necessary for prominent Muslim leaders to remind their people that murdering female family members is wrong?  Hmm...?
I like how you set that up with your question though:

If Muslims don't condemn it, then they are "silently complicit" in a crime that "must be supported by Islam" because they don't condemn it.

If they do condemn it, "well, Islam must be partly responsible, otherwise why do they need to say anything?".

Yes, whether their leaders condemn it or not, Islam is complicit in a number of savage actions by a number of Muslims. 

Don't you get it?  A leader doesn't absolve the guilt of his people just by giving a few speeches.  It doesn't matter if their religious leaders are all Mother Theresa reincarnated, there are still way too many Muslims who think their religion compells them to stone or murder or abuse innocent women.

I appreciate that the leadership is trying to improve, "A for effort" and all that.  But good intentions don't matter, results do.  The results are that Aqsa Parvez was murdered by a barbaric Muslim practicing a barbaric Muslim practice. 

Speeches and condemnation aren't going to bring Aqsa Parvez back to life.

Len Budney

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2007, 07:50:56 AM »
Speeches and condemnation aren't going to bring Aqsa Parvez back to life.

You seem to have forgotten: conservatives blame the killer. Conservatism is all about personal responsibility. It's liberals that blame the killer's society, religion, lack of education, lack of money, mental illness, and last but not least the weapon. You're taking the liberal route of absolving the killer so you can condemn his religious group instead.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2007, 08:06:31 AM »
Have you read any of what I said?  I'm not absolving anyone.  SS is trying to absolve Islam of its complicity in her murder, and I'm not allowing it.  Mr. Parvez and his religion both deserve blame.

Paddy

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2007, 08:23:04 AM »
Quote
Mr. Parvez and his religion are both deserve blame.

Explain how his religion is responsible for his actions.  While you're at it, you can also explain why Jews, upon reading Leviticus, are not 'putting people to death' for the offenses listed in Leviticus 20: 9-16.  Or stoning 'mediums' or 'wizards' pursuant to Leviticus 20: 27.

Why is that?

Joe Demko

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2007, 09:16:07 AM »
This guy killed his daughter for disobeying him.  Lots of parents kill their children for disobeying them.  He happened to be Muslim.  If he'd been Catholic, Baptist, Hindu, or any other religion I suspect he'd have killed her for disobeying him on something. 
That's right... I'm a Jackbooted Thug AND a Juvenile Indoctrination Technician.  Deal with it.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2007, 09:35:11 AM »
Dammit, people here just will not accept the truth. NO, it was NOT just a crime not related to religion.

Quote
Friends and classmates of a 16-year-old girl who police say was murdered by her devout Muslim father in a Toronto suburb told local media Tuesday she was killed for not wearing a hijab.

She was KILLED for NOT COVERING HER FREAKING HEAD!

What part of that is not clear? How is that NOT related to the extremist flavor of A RELIGION!

Because the hijab is a tribal covering that predates Islam by centuries

Back when many of those tribes were Zoro-Astrian or outright pagans of various stripes, honor killings for being uncovered or alone with a man or any of the other "ways to control our wimmin folk" were happily practiced.

They were neither created by Islam nor are they condoned by most interpretations of Islamic law.  They predate Islam, they predate Christianity and they predate Judaism. 

THEY ARE TRIBAL TRADITIONS IRRESPECTIVE OF THE RELIGION OF THE TRIBESMEN!

Quote from: Manedwolf
What part of that is not clear? How is that NOT related to the extremist flavor of A RELIGION!?


Fixed that for you.

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CAnnoneer

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2007, 09:41:14 AM »
I eagerly await a thread from you recognizing that genocide committed against other religions is wrong, past and future.  It'd be nice if you were as upset about the holocaust as you are about Muslims continuing to live their religion.

Apples and oranges. And a grossly simplistic way to think about the world too.

It is a matter of priorities. Self-preservation ranks very high. Preservation of hostiles ranks very low. When hostiles can cause serious damage to our side, it is rational to choose a solution which satisfies the higher priority. Genocide can be such a solution. If they were not hostiles, the math would work differently.

In any case, SS, you must realize you have lost virtually all credibility here. There was a time on this forum when it would be only myself and Manedwolf who'd refuse to tolerate your lame apologeticism. Now, it is gratifying to me to see that a list of other posters have reached the same point too. Since I am no longer the crazy minority, maybe it is you who should rethink your ways.

Your religion is crap. Always has been, always will be. It is violent, intolerant, paranoid, schyzophrenic, oppresive, medieval, backward, evil, and inhuman. I am no fan of christianity either, but would sit at Jesus's table any day over sitting with Muhamad on the best day. It is an affront, a blemish, on the face of modern human society.

Out of desire to live in peace, modern western society has been twisting itself into a moebius loop trying to be accomodating, but the reality is no matter how accomodating you are to a poisonous vicious snake, it will always bite you. Why? Because it cannot help itself. It is in its nature.

People like you think they help matters by playing the apologetic spinning game, by selling cultural equivalence, by counterattacking other religions, by an incessant stream of pretend victimology. Instead, you just help and abett rank evil, while turning neutrals against you too. You are broadening the gap instead of shrinking it. You are digging your own grave. So, keep busy, busy bee, buzz, buzz... You are an idiot.

Len Budney

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2007, 10:02:14 AM »
Self-preservation ranks very high. Preservation of hostiles ranks very low.

Preservation of non-hostiles also ranks low. So low that killing tens of thousands of non-hostiles in hopes of nailing a few hostiles is perfectly acceptable.

Quote
In any case, SS, you must realize you have lost virtually all credibility here.

Since when are you the credibility score-keeper? You have no way of knowing how much credibility others here vest in him, and pretending that you have the inside track while he is an outsider trembling at the door needing a kind word from you is... lots of things. Laughable, mostly.

Quote
Your religion is crap.

Being a Christian, I'd love to see Muslims everywhere convert to Christianity. But I wouldn't approach it by saying, "Your religion is crap." I wouldn't say it so confidently if I were you, for two reasons. Firstly, it's a virtual certainty that I and some others on this board (such as the atheists, agnostics, and probably others) regard your religion as "crap"--or, if you don't have one, I and the religious folks on the board would consider that to be "crap". Second, I'm pretty sure calling others' religion "crap" on this board is against forum rules.

Quote
People like you think they help matters by playing the apologetic spinning game, by selling cultural equivalence, by counterattacking other religions, by an incessant stream of pretend victimology.

I advise SS not to do any of those things. Instead, I suggest he get a CCW, take NRA training, and carry at all times. If you or anyone else crosses the line between saying a bunch of insulting crap and start physically threatening him, I suggest he respond, with deadly force if necessary.

--Len.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab (Canada)
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2007, 10:03:16 AM »
Quote
Being a Christian, I'd love to see Muslims everywhere convert to Christianity.

They can't.

Because the extremists that are spreading everywhere will declare them apostates, and kill them.

Oops. Little complication there!