Has your standard of living IMPROVED due to Chinese imports?

[telewinz]

Mine certainly has from light bulbs to leather belts and probably alot more other items that I don't know about.  If I purchased all American Made products, I'd be on food stamps!

[mtnbkr]

Dunno.  I know I avoid products "Made in China" whenever possible.  That doesn't always mean more expensive either.  I bought a bathroom scale recently that was not only Made in the USA, but also less expensive than the similar Made in China model (both at Wal-Mart).  

As for leather belts, the last one I bought was handmade by Rafter S.  

Chris

[Standing Wolf]

The vast majority of Chinese stuff is of inferior quality.

Take my new keyboard, for example. There's only one maker of split keyboards for Macintoshes left in business: Adesso. I had to replace the old one, since several of the keys had come off four and five times, and couldn't still be glued back in place. This one has a right shift key shortened to make room for the \ and | characters, which are normally pushed out of the way. The left shift key works only when I remember to move my least finger far to the left. Sloppy design. Sloppy workmanshipbut that's China for you.

If I'd been able to find anything else, believe me: I wouldn't even have considered this sorry excuse for a keyboard.

[Monkeyleg]

The current trade imbalance with China, and the looming military confrontation with them, should be reason enough for Americans to not buy Chinese goods.

They're going to be coming at us economically, and maybe militarily. You can take that to the bank

Right now they hold enough of our T-bonds that they could seriously impact our economy by doing a massive sell-off.

And their generals are itching to fight us.

They're using their artificially-propped-up currency to buy oil from the Mideast, a region that they've spent zero dollars defending.

In the next year or so, they're going to be selling their cars here in the US. Cars whose designs were stolen from GM. None of our government's calls for patent protection and intellectual property rights have had any effect.

In the 1930's, the FDR administration recognized the threat from Japan, and took measures to cut that country off from rubber and oil imports. It lead to a war with Japan, but a war with a weaker Japan than we would otherwise have faced if not for the embargoes.

Sooner or later we're going to have to deal with China on a level that we've never had to face before. We may not survive.

But, ain't WalMart wonderful?

[telewinz]

We  HAVE been dealing with China for decades, they are just beating/competing with us in the Global market and winning in some areas.  They are not doing anything now that the U.S. hasn't done in the past.  We have a well documented history of exploitation of other countries and governments in the interests of "protecting our way of life" and our standard of living.  I don't disapprove or approve, this is just the way of the World.  Our biggest handicap in competing is corporate America's greed (?) concerning  profit, a small or medium size profit is no longer "worthwhile", they either close the business as "unprofitable" or merge to reduce  competition.  That leaves a window of opportunity and China is taking advantage of it, just as Walmarts and every other retailer is taking advantage of China's low labor costs and buying their products.  If GM refuses to make low profit economy/small cars (SUV's instead) I'll buy a Chinese car anytime, maybe GM will adapt to what the consumer wants which is how a consumer driven market is suppose function.  China isn't 100% honest or legal in their methods?  What nation in history ever was?

YANKEE: The term could have been applied to Dutch pirates in the Caribbean (hence the 1680s references) and later shifted to New Englanders. Mencken favors this explanation, saying that the term was probably applied by Dutch New Yorkers to New Englanders "whose commercial enterprise outran their moral scruples."

[The Rabbi]

I heard the same Bravo Sierra about the Japanese back in the '70s.  They were buying up all our property, they were disciplined and motivated.  They wanted revenge for Hiroshima, etc.  That was bunk and this is bunk.
China will continue to  grow and prosper as long as their cost of labor is significantly less than anyplace else in the world.  But rising prosperity means rising prices and rising wages and they will lose their competitive edge, just as the Japanese did.

If someone saves $1.50 on a barbecue grill he doesnt notice it much.  If he were to add up all the $1.50 savings on all the items purchased in the year he would notice it a lot.  The guy in Ohio whose job was building barbecue grills notices it a lot when his job goes to China. A small number of people will suffer a big impact and a large number of people will benefit to a small degree.  Its economics.  Get over it.

[telewinz]

"If someone saves $1.50 on a barbecue grill he doesn't notice it much.  If he were to add up all the $1.50 savings on all the items purchased in the year he would notice it a lot"

Last year I noticed even ten cents in our expenditures, I was able to reduce expenses by over $70,000 yet increase sales by $75,000.  No cutting electricity,heating, overtime, supplies, personnel or ANY inconvenence at all.  It just took a dedicated staff and a serious look at our buying procedures, a dime or nickel at a time.

[K Frame]

Little does mtnbkr know that I'm Chinese...

[thorn]

i have to wonder.

it keeps the price down on a ton of things, but the quality on many is so much lower-

A BIG DRAWBACK= all the extra $$$$ the top execs in US pocket, the wages not paid to US workers.

it has to have an impact. to some degree Americans just get different jobs now, but how many people are working in Wal mart for so nothing, instead of in a factory for decent wages. maybe we'd rather be in the store.

it's a tough one.  i think in the long run all that $$$ leaving the country is not a good thing, and may be affecting how much people are willing to pay me here.

for my toy collection,. China does keep the price down , but QC is terrible over there, and things like=
my gijoe comic pack #9 got delayed for 8 months because the Gov't shut down a factory and was refusing to release the molds. ridiculous.

for most other stuff, China just means it will break sooner so i gotta spend extra on the American version anyway.

it is a trade off i think

[Silver Bullet]

Some day the American manufacturers will realize that, as a result of their importing good jobs overseas, there aren't enough Americans who can afford to buy their products.  There will be a lot of cheap, unsold products on the shelves.  

The other thing that is happening is that the American manufacturers are training the imports to not only make, but sell and market .  There are cases where the Asians learned how to manufacture from us, and then turned around and used that knowledge to make and sell their own, cheaper product.

Slave labor is cheap; it's tough to compete against.

[atek3]

Has your standard of living IMPROVED due to Chinese imports?

Of course it has...  The alternative is saying has my life been improved by coercive measures to STOP imports (tariffs and quotas),  of course it hasn't.  The problem isn't that the Chinese hold so many US T-bills.  The problem is that America no longer makes anything worth buying.  

America has regulated and unionized itself into the same situation the UK found itself in the 1970's.  Americans can't compete on price, or quality, for that matter.  The only thing we CAN compete on is technology/innovation.  But with the majority of Americans BS'ing on chat boards about "chinese takin' 'r jobs" rather then getting out and inventing/improving something worth buying, American's fall in standard of living will be inevitable.  

China, India, and all the other up and coming quasi-capitalist countries are churning out hardworking citizens with Ph.D's and the will to improve their standard of living.  American Universities are churning out lazy bums with comparative literature and ethnic/gender studies degrees, who DEMAND a secure academic job.  No comparison between the two.  American's want their Plasma Screen TV's, SUV's, and Camera Cellphones handed to them on a gilded platter.  Just because you "work hard" doesn't mean you deserve anything, if it did Bangladesh would be a center of wealth and prosperity.  No contrived solution from the Government except "getting out of the way" will allow America to keep its status as #1 Dog.  

Some day the American manufacturers will realize that, as a result of their importing good jobs overseas, there aren't enough Americans who can afford to buy their products.  There will be a lot of cheap, unsold products on the shelves.  

The other thing that is happening is that the American manufacturers are training the imports to not only make, but sell and market .  There are cases where the Asians learned how to manufacture from us, and then turned around and used that knowledge to make and sell their own, cheaper product.

really, I don't know what to say... maybe take an economics class or two.  "importing(sic) good jobs overseas", stop it, milk is coming out of my nose.

Suppose all t-shirts are 10 dollars in the united states, providing thousands of americans with "good jobs".  Then suppose all the t-shirt companies fire all the workers, move the factories to India and start reaping huge profits.  Due to competition, the dreaded "free market" will drive down the profit, now the price of the T-shirt is down to, say, 3 dollars.  Now each American who buys a t-shirt, will save 7 dollars on that t-shirt.  Keep in mind that 100 times the number of people that make t-shirts are t-shirt buyers.  Now the 7 dollars they've saved can be spent on something else besides t-shirts, such as going out to dinner or vacationing.  You see a net shift from things people don't want (namely expensive t-shirts) to things that people do want (such as dinner out or vacations).  The on net standard of living has improved.

  Sure it seems cruel for the people who had "good jobs" making t-shirts.  But should we really mourn and try to "save" every inefficient job replaced in a free market?  I'm sure all the elevator operators, full service gas operators, horse and buggy makers, whale oil lantern makers, typesetters, typewriter makers, radium watch dial painters, and blacksmiths, are really bummed that they became unemployed, but seriously, the standard of living would be MUCH MUCH lower if we tried to the movement towards more efficient means of production.  Hiring cheap foreign labor at a fraction of the price of an American is really no different from mechanization or labor saving machines.  To suggest that THOSE are bad really suggests a complete failing of public schools to ingrain any bit of economic logic into Americans.

atek3

[Monkeyleg]

All of the arguments above in favor of buying Chinese goods assume that the quality of their US counterparts are the same. More often than not, the Chinese goods are of lesser quality. And I can understand that: a company that export jobs to China is probably one that will cut corners on QC. (I know I'll get flamed for that statement).

My father and I agree that our trade imbalance with China is a problem. Where we disagree is whose fault it is. He maintains that it's our government's fault for not stopping businesses from shipping jobs over there. I maintain that it's because American consumers are willing to buy Chinese goods.

It's nearly impossible to buy a shirt that's not made in China or some other Southeast Asian country. Nearly impossible, but not impossible. Just expect to pay more. But also expect to get what you pay for. I spent $45 on a dress shirt made in (insert SE Asian country here). However, the quality doesn't measure up to a UK-made shirt I saw at a high-end men's clothing store for three times the price.

The same goes for other consumer items. The folks who go to Home Depot and buy a John Deere garden tractor think they're buying a real John Deere. They're not. It's a cheap knock-off of the models sold by John Deere dealers.

I own one pair of Allen Edmonds shoes, and three pair of Tony Llama boots. Nothing at Payless Shoes will last as long, feel as good, or look as good over the long haul. I'll get at least ten year's of use from them. It costs me $40 to have a pair of boots re-soled and re-heeled every two years or so. Thus, my initial cost of $200 per pair plus $200 ($40 every two years for cobbler work over a ten year period) means a pair of boots cost me $40 a year. I've had foreign-made boots and shoes last less than a year, and cost that much or more.

[grampster]

"Ah so."   (Is someone talking about me again?)

[The Rabbi]

My father and I agree that our trade imbalance with China is a problem. Where we disagree is whose fault it is. He maintains that it's our government's fault for not stopping businesses from shipping jobs over there. I maintain that it's because American consumers are willing to buy Chinese goods.

And maybe both of you are wrong.  Maybe there is no problem at all.  Maybe the issue is one of economics, that low-tech manufacturing that can be done with untrained labor is migrating to its lowest-cost origination point.  This is called specialization, and is a main issue in economics.

[stevelyn]

America has regulated and unionized itself into the same situation the UK found itself in in the 70's

+1

[Waitone]

I just love it when we get into esoteric discussions of "free trade" and completely ignore the cost of government as a driver of labor arbitrage.  Labor costs are not the driver of US companies sending production overseas.  How can it be when total labor costs constitute a small percentage of the total cost structure.  A significant reduction  in a small percentage yields a small savings which can then be swamped by the higher costs of doing business overseas.

The reason companies head to China is not just labor savings.  It is labor savings, and regulatory costs including but not limited to health costs (US funds healthcare privately, virtually every other country in the world is socialized), enviro costs (direct and indirect), safety (both private and public initiated), and overlapping all the foregoing----litigation.  All these costs simply evaporate when a CEO says "China or Bust".  

Meanwhile back at the forum we are busily eating the red herring our government just dragged across out path.  We blame the Chinese, etc. when we should be vein-popping raging at what our government has done to us.  The socialist paradise our congress, president, and courts created is now the cause of a shift in the economy that is of questionable origin.

One major, major (did I say, major) reason we bust out rears to produce in China is because the Chinese have fixed their currency to the dollar.  Chinese currency does not float.  Regardless of the performance of the dollar in world markets, the Chinese dollar is at a fixed discount.  This particular trick gaurantees a net outflow of wealth from the US to China.  International trade guru's think the Chinese dollar is undervalued by about 40%, meaning their products sell at a discount over what they would sell at if the currency floated.  What is interesting here is the federales know what is going on and refuses to force China to float its currency.  For whatever reason China refuses to abide by related terms of the WTO and the US does nothing to force their hand.  Now why is that?  Why is the US engaging is a policy which will encourage production to head for China to the detriment of US workers?

Its is good we are beginning to question the value of our current relationship to Red China, but we also need to question our relationship with our own government which in my view is creating the situation so many of us worry about.

[Standing Wolf]

In the next year or so, they're going to be selling their cars here in the US. Cars whose designs were stolen from GM.

Stealing car designs from General Motors is a lot like stealing intelligent ideas from the Democratic (sic) party.

[brimic]

A lot of Chinese made stuff is just pure junk. What suprises me is that they can have a space program and build automobiles yet they still haven't mastered making box end wrenches that won't round off a bolt head or a crescent wrench knockoff that will hold its adjustment. Ire cently bought a pair of rod holders from walmart for $2 a piece for my fishing boat, figuring that $4 was not a big gamble if they didn't work. I found the rod holders to be impossible to mount to anything and be able to hold a fishing rod at the same time, my brother in law fell for the same crap and couldn't get his to work either. It seems to me that they are A: incompetent or B: holding back quality materials and manufactured items for their own use and selling their useless junk to the USA.

Working in the chemical industry, companies that I've worked for have ordered raw materials from chinese chemical plants that about %50 of the time turned out to be complete garbage or contaminated by stuff such as iron filings or grass clippings. The materials that urned out to be ok tended to be very poorly packaged.

I pretty much have a mindset that anything chinese made isn't likely to do what its supposed to do and try to not buy it if possible.

[brimic]

I own one pair of Allen Edmonds shoes, and three pair of Tony Llama boots. Nothing at Payless Shoes will last as long, feel as good, or look as good over the long haul. I'll get at least ten year's of use from them. It costs me $40 to have a pair of boots re-soled and re-heeled every two years or so. Thus, my initial cost of $200 per pair plus $200 ($40 every two years for cobbler work over a ten year period) means a pair of boots cost m$40 a year. I've had foreign-made boots and shoes last less than a year, and cost that much or more.

I'm pretty much on the same wavelength as you. I had a pair of Dan Post boots that lasted me about 6 or 7 years and a couple of resolings- I'd still have them if my wife hadn't pitched them  About the only brands I typically wear are Red Wing, Doc Martin, and Florsheim, because they all last a long time.

[K Frame]

"Stealing car designs from General Motors is a lot like stealing intelligent ideas from the Democratic (sic) party."

Bless you for saying it and keeping me from having to say it.

[telewinz]

Nothing is happening to America that hasn't been going on since the first caveman bartered his "hand crafted" stone ax.  If you want to make a good wage have a good marketable skill!  The market will decide what is a good wage for your skill, not the Chinese, not the unions and not the government.  Have you EVER seen a poor doctor or lawyer?  These other factors have an impact but it's the skill YOU have chosen to offer for sale on the open market that determines your compensation.  Is America at a disadvantage against some of our competition?  Yep.  Is there an easy solution? Nope.  Is this situation common throughout the history of the World? Yep.  Am I still going to continue to buy based on product value and not the country of origin? YEP!

BTW;  alot of American made products were/are junk.  Ever own an American made car of the 60's and 70's?

"If you don't like American cars (and there inherent "shortcomings) don't buy them!"  laugh, smile. Henry Ford Jr. soon after his retirement as broadcast in an interview with Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes.

[thorn]

>>>"Stealing car designs from General Motors is a lot like stealing intelligent ideas from the Democratic (sic) party."

Bless you for saying it and keeping me from having to say it.<<<<<


they're not jsut stealing American designs. the poster obviously saw the same article i did, it is blatant theft , and several automakers are suing. the pics are almsot funny how much a ripoff the cars are.

the CRV is an S-RV

[brimic]

BTW;  alot of American made products were/are junk.  Ever own an American made car of the 60's and 70's?

I owned a GM car made in the mid 70s that lasted 250,000 miles, I also owned a few made by Gm and Ford in the 80's that didn't last 100,000 miles.

Stealing car designs from General Motors is a lot like stealing intelligent ideas from the Democratic (sic) party."

LOL. Stealing Chrysler designs would be like stealing ideas from the Green party.

[The Rabbi]

Have you EVER seen a poor doctor or lawyer?

Yes.  Often as a matter of fact.

[telewinz]

"Often as a matter of fact"   Really? and whats your definition of "is"?

Average income USA 1995  

Mean Income ($/yr)  
Education Both sexes Males Females  
Not high school graduate 20,442 22,454 16,049  
High School graduate 27,038 31,063 21,298  
Some college, no degree 31,128 36,546 23,298  
Associate's degree 33,425 37,628 28,510  
Bachelor's degree 44,523 51,998 33,665  
Master's degree 55,384 64,544 41,676  
Doctorate 72,099 77,815 55,041  
Professional Degree 98,197 111,654 59,793