Has your standard of living IMPROVED due to Chinese imports?

[The Rabbi]

Telewinz,
I have never seen an "average" person.  I have seen only individuals.  And a number of individuals I have seen are in fact doctors and lawyers.  My wife also sees both doctors and lawyers.  She works for a lawyer, in this case a Chapter 7 bankruptcy trustee.  Part of her job is going to the meeting of creditors, so she sees many many debtors.  Believe it or not, at least some of those debtors are doctors and lawyers.
I also see such people and have seen a good number in very poor circumstances.

[telewinz]

I see "average" people all the time, I'm one myself.  Since when is debtor "poor"?  My brother is an attorney and my wife an RN.  America has been a debtor nation for decades yet few would seriously say America is "poor".

[The Rabbi]

Since when is debtor "poor"?

You dont consider a bankrupt to be poor?  I'd like to see your definition of poor then.  Maybe merely having a JD or MD degree suddenly confers magic wealth?

And I wouldnt go spreading it around about your brother....

[K Frame]

It's really odd that people get the impression that a doctor or a lawyer is immediately rolling in wealth, living in a big house, rolling in dough, playing golf on Wednesdays, and driving a Ferrari Testosterone.

A few years ago through my church I met a very fascinating medical doctor. He was also a minister. His entire practice was where the church sent him. It paid him a salary that most of us would laugh at.

He had gotten his medical degree via the US government, spent some years in the Army as a doctor, and when discharged due to medical reasons, immediately started doing medical missionary work.

When I met him he was doing medical missionary work in some of the worst neighborhoods in Philadelphia. Prior to that he'd been in Africa, Asia, South America, and was itching to go back to Asia.

[telewinz]

Maybe there is a good reason why people "assume" doctors are not poor:

Total compensation of Physicians by Specialty; 2002
 
Anesthesiology $306,964
Surgery, general $255,438
Obstetrics/Gynecology $233,061
Internal medicine $155,530
Pediatrics/Adolescent medicine $152,690
Psychiatry $163,144
Family Practice $150,267

[Sindawe]

Maybe there is a good reason why people "assume" doctors are not poor

Ob-Gyn: 2002, $23,000/year.  This does not include costs of office space if in private practice, salary+taxes for any nurses/medical assistants, the receptionist, the equipment, the cost to stay current on licence's and training, supplies and the like.

Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/02/eveningnews/consumer/main610102.shtml

As for being "poor", frell, the majority of the "poor" in our culture live better than the Kings of old, with easy access to plentiful food, adequate shelter, 500 channels of entertainmnet 24x7 in their "court" and health care beyond the dreams of the insane in days past.  While I'll not call the professionals of our society "rich", I'll also not call most of the poor of it "impoverished" while (and other classes) daily cart about several months worth of fat reserves on their bodies.

As for the Chinese Imports improving my standard of living, no, it has not.  Sure I can by cheap stuff at Wally World and the like, but its still cheap stuff for the most part, not something my great grand neices and nephews will cherish.  If they get it, since I plan to be around using the stuff when THEY are adults.

[brimic]

I don't consider a doctor to be rich or poor, but a product of his/ her own ambition.

I make quite a bit more than any of the figures Telewinz quoted for a person with a bachelors degree. I don't have any student loans left to pay off let alone some of the 6 figure loans that doctors pay off after med school, don't have to buy malpractice insurance, don't have to rent office space in a clinic etc.  

I feel that I'm not any worse off than a doctor with their financial burdens. I'm almost starting to think that nurses are starting to have it better than doctors- job security and opportunities wherever they want to live and high pay. My sister pulls down $65K a year, works 3 days a week in a rural area as a RN.

[K Frame]

"Obstetrics/Gynecology $233,061"

All that, and they get paid for it, too...

That's a median average.

Think of it as a bell curve.

There are a lot of doctors who earn a lot less than that, and there are others who earn a lot more.


There's another consideration that has to be factored in. Most doctors leave medical school with a massive debt load.

My friend Mo, for example. Brilliant woman. Went to Georgetown undergrad, Yale Med School, and is a pediatrician.

She entered residence with school loan debts of close to $200,000.

If you look at her raw salary, yep, she might be "wealthy," but I've seen the size of the check that she cuts to the school loan people every month.

Let's just say that there's not a lot of discretionary income there right now, and it's going to be quite a few years until she's rolling in the wealth to which her education and abilities have directed her.

[telewinz]

Most college students and those with post graduate degrees have BIG bills also.  Only they don't make as much as doctors.  If you are trying to set doctors up as poor "Richie Rich", it isn't going to happen!  98,000 people are KILLED in hospitals every year due to medical mistakes.  Thank God they aren't paid minimum wage!

The HealthGrades Patient Safety in American Hospitals study is the first to look at the mortality and economic impact of medical errors and injuries that occurred during Medicare hospital admissions nationwide from 2000 to 2002. The HealthGrades study applied the mortality and economic impact models developed by Dr. Chunliu Zhan and Dr. Marlene R. Miller in a research study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in October of 2003. The Zhan and Miller study supported the Institute of Medicines (IOM) 1999 report conclusion, which found that medical errors caused up to 98,000 deaths annually and should be considered a national epidemic.

[The Rabbi]

Those figures dont include malpractice insurance.  For an OB/GYN that can run upwards of $100k (yes one hundred thousand dollars) per year.

Telewinz, all you have done is cite income statistics.  Income is meaningless in wealth.  So I ask again, what is your definition of poor?

[telewinz]

If income is meaningless in wealth we are talking two different subjects.  The question wasn't directed at spiritual wealth but financial wealth (or lack of it).  You know, the old meaning of wealth, the IRS meaning of wealth, the food stamp meaning of wealth, the kind of wealth that often comes in the form of a paycheck, the kind of wealth you buy life insurance for, the kind of wealth you pay a doctor for 5 minutes of his time, the kind of wealth he pays you when he removes your kidney by mistake!  Are we clear?

[The Rabbi]

No.  I dont think you know what wealth is and what differentiates it from income.