Osama Bin Laden...

[Finch]

You're right.  The only way that any nation could be a threat to us is by a full-scale invasion.  I seem to have forgotten about that after something called Sept. 11. 

What nation was responsible for 9/11 again?

And we're not doing that, are we? 

Nobody ever said we had to do it all at once.  But were working awfully hard to find a reason to jump on Iran's ass, Pakistan too.

Which is why we're in Iraq.  You'll counter with, "But they weren't there until we invaded!"  Which only points up how nice it is that we were able to distract the enemy into a sandbox where we could mangle them on a daily basis.

Awesome plan. But wait, why didn't we take that and just apply it to Afghanistan? What does Iraq have that Afghanistan doesn't...

[Perd Hapley]

You're right.  The only way that any nation could be a threat to us is by a full-scale invasion.  I seem to have forgotten about that after something called Sept. 11. 

What nation was responsible for 9/11 again?

Nice try, but I'm going to hold you to the issue we were discussing.  Nations may pose threats in many other ways besides invasion.  Can we agree on that? 

But were working awfully hard to find a reason to jump on Iran's ass, Pakistan too.

Nope.  All in your head.   

Which is why we're in Iraq.  You'll counter with, "But they weren't there until we invaded!"  Which only points up how nice it is that we were able to distract the enemy into a sandbox where we could mangle them on a daily basis.

Awesome plan. But wait, why didn't we take that and just apply it to Afghanistan? What does Iraq have that Afghanistan doesn't...

Another dangerous element we could reduce, of course.  That being Saddam Hussein, his cronies, and his penchant for WMD.  Besides its nifty strategic location. 

[Lennyjoe]

Why would we decide to commit a much larger force to invading Iraq, a country which was no threat to us, instead of using an equal size force in finding the people who actually attack the United States

Here's my take on this quote.  Saddam surrendered after Gulf War 1 with a list of issues that he must comply with or else.  Well, he basically told everyone to shove them issues up their ass and everyone pretty much accepted it.  Clinton most of all.  Sure, Clinton tried to act tough on occasion but he didn't do squat about it.  During the Democratic presidential years things were left to go untouched in the Gulf.

Along comes Bush.  I think George would of kicked Saddams ass sooner had it not been for 9/11.  But, he didn't get to until we finished the business in Afghanistan.

When a President with a backbone came on board he said enough was enough.  We took him out to end the constant finger in the air routine Saddam was playing.  That country is better off without him.

What people don't understand is if Democracy takes a foot hold in the Gulf we all will be better off in the end. 

I've been to Kuwait 6 times and have seen what has transpired there.  Kuwait City has changed every year that I've gone there.  More and more Westernized (if thats a word) and the people seem to like their freedom of choice. 

If that takes hold in Iraq, the Iranian youth might just take an interest as well and work towards Democracy.  If not, at least we tried.

1 1/2 years later we are in Iraq. For what purpose? Who the hell knows

The United States of America didn't become a Democracy overnight.  Took more than 1.5 years to find ourself after the war.

[Gewehr98]

Finch, you're right.

I'm thinking those Iraqis who walked up to me during my government-paid vacation in Iraq really didn't mean to say "Thank You" - they were put up to it by George Bush, under threat of being fed into a chipper shredder head first. 

[Lennyjoe]

What nation was responsible for 9/11 again?

None, it was a group of radical Muslim religious fanatics inspired by Bin Laden. 

Their leader is hiding out in a cave and is nothing more than a name in the history books.

[Tecumseh]

Congrats Tecumseh, I had one nerve left today and you just got on it. 

Ever humped everything you owned for miles and miles ??
How about stepping out into darkness at about 2,000 ft AGL with 70 lbs of gear and your weapon strapped to your ass??
Ever been responsible for completing the mission while jealously guarding the lives of 30-150 of your troops ??

Yeah, I didnt think so.


Ever been to Afghanistan ??

How about Pakistan ??  Specifically the Tribal regions ??

Keep in mind that when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in Dec 1979 it was a 3rd World shithole, and they finally pulled out in Feb 1989 .  In the meantime they pretty much killed anyone who had two brains cells to rub together and destroyed most of the infrastructure.  Then there were a couple years of civil war which finally left the Taliban in charge and they basically finished what the Soviets started as far as killing smart people and destroying anything more then two mud bricks tall.  I remember an Air Force General answering a reporters question shortly after 9/11 as something like Yeah, we can bomb them back to the Stone Age, should take about 10-15 minutes.  Its going to take a lot of money and years of work just to bring it up to the level of 3rd World Shithole. 

Its not like we can just go cave-to-cave, ring the door bell and say Can Osama come out and play ??  Youre talking a country roughly the size of Manitoba, but instead of being roughly flat glacial plains, its damn near all vertical.  Not nice rolling hills, but more a F*@& you, try to climb this vertical.  And as a previous poster pointed out, we still havent found DB Cooper and Eric Rudolph ran around the Appalachian mountains for years.  Not to mention a bunch of other people who have disappeared.  Just from around here near Chicago, we can't find Stacey Peterson, Lisa Stebic, or John Spira.   

Do you realize that we have ~23,000 troops in Afghanistan and another 17,000 from NATO?? They are currently working to help the Afghani people and hunt for OBL. Several of them are people who I served with and we still talk.  They all pretty much agree that theyd rather be in Iraq then in Afghanistan.

I lost a bud from my Military Police Officer Advanced Course in Iraq in 2003. 

So Mr. Internet Commando/Smart Guy, why dont you take off the Ron Paul Wookie costume, get off the computer, wash the Cheetos stains off your fingers, get out of your moms basement and go down to the Army or Marine recruiter and say Id like to pick up a weapon and lead the hunt for OBL, cause I know I can find his ass.  In the meantime your little hissy fit falls under the tis a tale told by an idiot; full of sound and fury; signifying nothing.

[RANT MODE = OFF]

To the Mods, I've got my heels locked and at attention awaiting my deserved ass-chewing.

  I am not a veteran, so what?  Anyone can plainly see that the hunt for Osama Bin Laden is being pushed to side in Bush's pursuit of the war of terror in Iraq.  I am going to ask, if we cannot find the Stacy Petersen girl but we can find Saddam?  That logic does not work as it is the US Military and not the Police looking for her. 

Either way, I have no interest in joining the military to fight for the freedom of other nations.  I think there is a fight going on right here.  Things like the Patriot Act, gun control, and W's willingness to ask pardon for previous warcrimes makes me think that we are not truly free.  I am glad your friends would rather be in Iraq than Afghanistan.  But that still does not explain why we are not as interested in looking for OBL when he is guilty of attacking the country and instead work on taking out a country that did not attack us but is oil rich.

I am sorry your friend was killed.  However that is no excuse to personally attack me.  Instead you should ask Bush why he was killed and not demean others for it.  As far as personal attacks go, I dont see the need to personally attack others because they disagree with you.  It does not go with my morals and beliefs.  I cannot sink to your level sir. 

Good day and God Bless.

[Tecumseh]

Well, when that's all they've got, they'll keep going back to it, I guess.

I guess the one thing that keeps playing in my head is this. Why would we decide to commit a much larger force to invading Iraq, a country which was no threat to us, instead of using an equal size force in finding the people who actually attack the United States?

Follow me on this.

1.) We get attacked by a group of people, not a nation, but a group of people.

2.) Bush makes a half-assed attempt and finding and killing those actually responsible.

3.) 1 1/2 years later we are in Iraq. For what purpose? Who the hell knows. But those who actually did use harm are still running around and now have better fodder for recruitment. Yea Bush!

That is pretty much the way I see things.  I am just curious as to why this is?  So far I have been attacked for questioning Dubya.

[Tecumseh]

IRAQI'S WERE AT YOU FRONT DOOR!!! OH MY GOD RUN!!

Oh, wait, you live in America. Not, Kuwait. America. Please don't tell me you honestly feared an invasion from Iraq?

You're right.  The only way that any nation could be a threat to us is by a full-scale invasion.  I seem to have forgotten about that after something called Sept. 11. 

  Could 9/11 have been a preemptive strike?  I mean if we can preemptively strike Iraq, couldn't Osama Bin Laden preemptively strike us before we invaded Iraq?  I mean Al Quaeda was in Iraq right?

[Bigjake]

To the Mods, I've got my heels locked and at attention awaiting my deserved ass-chewing.
 

OOH-Rah, Sir, that was masterful.

[Finch]

Finch, you're right.

I'm thinking those Iraqis who walked up to me during my government-paid vacation in Iraq really didn't mean to say "Thank You" - they were put up to it by George Bush, under threat of being fed into a chipper shredder head first. 

That's great. Was it worth it? Was it worth the thousands of American lives lost? Was it worth the billions of dollars spent that we didn't have? Was it worth the Patriot Act? To me no. Frankly I would rather leave the internal affairs of other nations to the people of those nations, because where do we draw the line? Are we going into Sudan next? More people are suffering there then ever were in Iraq. What about Burma? Let's invade Burma so we can get thank you's and feel all warm and fuzzy.

To scout26 - I debated weather I wanted to say this or not given that a good majority of the people on this board would probably look down on me for what I'm about to say, but odds are this is the only place I will interact with these folks so here it goes. When ever someone disagrees with GWB's foreign policy, you often say something to the effect of "Why don't you pick up a weapon and show them how it's done."

I was about to. After 9/11 I felt real bad. I felt like I was doing nothing to help. I was 18 when 9/11 happened and halfway to a degree in Computer Science. So I went to talk to an Army recruiter. I told them I wanted to enlist as soon as I got my degree. This led to pressure to enlist right now. Call me selfish, I don't care, but I wanted to wait until I got my degree. The recruiter laid off and told me that I could go to OCS but I declined, I told him I wanted to enlist. So we talked some more and he told me that I could go in as an E-4 if I had a 4 year degree. Great, I thought.

So we moved on to the subject of MOS's. He mentioned that a degree in Computer Science would be quite beneficial in several areas of the military (another reason I didn't want to go to OCS, I couldn't pick my field). Ultimately I settled for becoming an Intelligence analyst with hopes of becoming a Counter Intelligence Warrant Officer. I was pretty excited. For the next few months my recruiter called me every couple of weeks asking me if I changed my mind about joining sooner, I wanted to, but school was going well and I liked the idea of going in as an E-4.

Well, in late 2002 my mom was the victim of some pretty bad malpractice. I had to take the fall semester off from school to help her get back together. But this of course pushed my graduation back, my recruiter wasn't too thrilled but he understood. I used this extra time to get into shape. I wanted to the best during basic, I wanted to blow all the benchmarks away. I was getting real excited and was heavily considering joining up and finishing school later, but given the speed at which technology changes, postponing a nearly complete Computer Science degree wasn't a wise move.

Well, I'm glad I didn't finish on time because March 18th rolled around and President Bush decided to invade Iraq. Initially I felt that maybe Bush was right. Maybe Iraq was a threat to our nation. But that turned out to be false. Iraq wasn't a threat.

When joining up I would have to take this oath:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I honestly feel that the Iraq war is an gross abuse of our military. I wanted to join to help protect America from actual enemies, not people that may become enemies eventually (which is potentially everybody). I wanted to join to protect the ideals that were outlined in the constitution. I don't feel that our military is being used for its intended purpose and as such I don't want to contribute to that. Our military is not being used to protect this nation. It is not being used to fight for our freedoms, I know this because Iraq was never a threat to our freedoms.  If someone decides to knock some sense into our foreign policy and I am still young enough, I will be glad to join up, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I have no hesitation to fight for this country, but Iraq is not a fight for this country.

[Perd Hapley]

Finch, you're right.

I'm thinking those Iraqis who walked up to me during my government-paid vacation in Iraq really didn't mean to say "Thank You" - they were put up to it by George Bush, under threat of being fed into a chipper shredder head first. 

That's great. Was it worth it? Was it worth the thousands of American lives lost? Was it worth the billions of dollars spent that we didn't have? Was it worth the Patriot Act?

The USAPATRIOT Act has what to do with Iraq now?   

[Perd Hapley]

So far I have been attacked for questioning Dubya. 

Uh, no you were attacked for asking stupid questions and making uninformed remarks.   

[Finch]

The USAPATRIOT Act has what to do with Iraq now?   

Good point. I classify Iraq as another escapade in Bush's War on Terror. And because the Patriot Act is allegedly in support of this War on Terror, I tend to lump them together. Two stupid government adventures, both of which we don't need.

Oh and

Nope.  All in your head.   

Lieberman-Kyl Amendment

[De Selby]

The resounding successes in Iraq and Afghanistan speak for themselves as to the greatness of the decisions to invade both places.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/09/iraq.main/index.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSISL28806

In reality, the scope of the disaster in both of these places truly does make the argument about whether or not we should have attacked either moot; It is a media fantasyland that one must live in to believe that either of these countries are headed for anything good in the foreseeable future.

[CAnnoneer]

It is a media fantasyland that one must live in to believe that either of these countries are headed for anything good in the foreseeable future.

Because they had such a glamorous future under Saddam and the taliban... 

I wonder what Iraq would look like without AQ blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

[Finch]

I wonder what Iraq would look like without AQ blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

I wonder what Iraq would look like without The United States  blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

[Tecumseh]

I wonder what Iraq would look like without AQ blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

I wonder what Iraq would look like without The United States  blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

  Well it would look better.  Did the other poster forget to mention that Al Quaeda was not there when Saddam was there?  I seem to remember that fact.  But hey, why let facts ruin the argument?

[Bigjake]

Did the other poster forget to mention that Al Quaeda was not there when Saddam was there?  I seem to remember that fact.  But hey, why let facts ruin the argument?

That remark was so incredibly uninformed that I just wanted to go dig up scads of proof & sources, but then I saw you posted it, and that would be a waste of perfectly good facts. 

[stevelyn]

Where is he?  I thought he was the number one goal?  Why does the fight seem largely abandoned in favor of Iraq?

Anyone else think that he is not in Iraq?

 
It make it more difficult to convince the sheeple to give up more of their undeserved liberty if you kill off your best selling boogyman.

Good point. I classify Iraq as another escapade in Bush's War on Terror. And because the Patriot Act is allegedly in support of this War on Terror, I tend to lump them together. Two stupid government adventures, both of which we don't need.

OBL and Iraq are two completely different animals totally unrelated to each other.

Iraq is a proxy war we're fighting on Isreal's behalf with our blood and money.

[Manedwolf]

I wonder what Iraq would look like without AQ blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

I wonder what Iraq would look like without The United States  blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

Mogadishu, Somalia.

[CAnnoneer]

That remark was so incredibly uninformed that I just wanted to go dig up scads of proof & sources, but then I saw you posted it, and that would be a waste of perfectly good facts. 

Sadly, that is how I feel about a large portion of the US electorate. Out there, there is a weirding combination of deliberate and accidental falsehoods, misunderstanding, conspiracy theories, paranoia, and sheer ignorance. Clearing out all that is truly a Hecrulian task, and the only river big enough, the media, is also the one piling the *expletive deleted*it downstream.

[Tecumseh]

I wonder what Iraq would look like without AQ blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

I wonder what Iraq would look like without The United States  blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

Mogadishu, Somalia.

  I have read that Iraq was pretty well off.  It was pretty peaceful before Bush decided to unleash his war of terror upon them.  I seem to remember reading about 600,000 estimated Iraqi civilians dead.  Anyone else think that this is sad? 

[roo_ster]

I wonder what Iraq would look like without AQ blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

I wonder what Iraq would look like without The United States  blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

Mogadishu, Somalia.

  I have read that Iraq was pretty well off.  It was pretty peaceful before Bush decided to unleash his war of terror upon them.  I seem to remember reading about 600,000 estimated Iraqi civilians dead.  Anyone else think that this is sad? 

Yeah, it is sad because you have swallowed a lot of propaganda unquestioningly.

600K Iraqi Civilians Dead:
Google the terms:
iraq civilian casualties lancet methodology soros

The first hit:
http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/databomb/index.htm
is well-balanced and provides good detail as to why the study is now viewed as worthless.  The discussion of statistical sampling is near to my heart, as statistical methods are an invaluable tool in my work.

If you absolutely must have an anti-GW2 source, Iraq Body Count thought the study bunk when it was released for the listed reasons:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/reality-checks/

-------

For a fellow quick to dismiss data due to its source, I detect very little curiosity WRT data that comports to your own views.

[Manedwolf]

I wonder what Iraq would look like without AQ blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

I wonder what Iraq would look like without The United States  blowing stuff up and sicking one group unto another all the time... 

Mogadishu, Somalia.

  I have read that Iraq was pretty well off.  It was pretty peaceful before Bush decided to unleash his war of terror upon them.  I seem to remember reading about 600,000 estimated Iraqi civilians dead.  Anyone else think that this is sad? 

Quit reading Daily Kos and anything Soros funds, and real some real facts.

[Scout26]

Anyone can plainly see that the hunt for Osama Bin Laden is being pushed to side in Bush's pursuit of the war of terror in Iraq.

I know several people who have been in and are currently in Afghanistan that would disagree with you.   Maybe the hunt is being downplayed in the media, but not in the military.  (Media reporting >=< reality)

Again I will draw the comparison to Post WWI and Post WWII.  

After WWI we sent 3rd Army as the Army of Occupation (later called American Forcesin Germany) into the Rhineland.   We stayed a little more then 2 years. (We pulled out all our troops in 1921.)  Rather then helping to rebuild and establish a stable government, we pulled a Ron Paul/Democrat plan and said; "It's a mess, we're outta here."  Since we weren't willing to do the heavy lifting then, we had to pay a much higher price to clean it up later.  Learning from that mistake we've had forces in Germany for 62 years and counting.

IRAQI'S GERMANS WERE AT YOU FRONT DOOR!!! OH MY GOD RUN!!

Oh, wait, you live in America. Not, Kuwait Poland, France or England. America. Please don't tell me you honestly feared an invasion from IraqGermany?

Yep, my dad said they didn't fear an Invasion (Not even from Japan, so much), but they knew that Hitler and Tojo were bad actors that needed to be taken out.  I mean, come on, Adolf didn't pose a threat to us.  Yeah, we may have lost a merchant ship or three, but seriously what could Adolf have done to us ??  However, in '44'-'45 my dad and some Uncles got the European Vacation, other uncles got the Pacific Vacation.  I spent my time on the (then) Inter-German Border '88-89.      When my dad came over to visit in '89 we went to the towns he had fought through and visited with the locals.   We even went to Berlin.  While he is still saddened by the loss of his friends he stated that their sacrifice made Western Europe possible and that he was angry at what he saw at Checkpoint Charlie and the Wall.

When the Wall finally came down, he called me.  "I proud that you were there to finish the job we started."

I have read that Iraq was pretty well off.  It was pretty peaceful before Bush decided to unleash his war of terror upon them.  I seem to remember reading about 600,000 estimated Iraqi civilians dead.  Anyone else think that this is sad?  

Suuuuuure, and so was pre-war Nazi Germany (unless you were a Jew, Gypsy, or other untermenschen).  In Iraq, if you were a Sunni, you could probably get a fairly decent job and be part of the preferred class.  If you were *expletive deleted*it, Kurd, etc.  Not so much.   Unless you consider "Pretty well off" as having your government spray your village with poison gas (aka "a WMD"), and being subject to being grabbed off the street, tortured and killed at random.   And Soviet Union was "Pretty Peaceful" if you discount the forced collectivization of the Ukraine, various Purges, the Gulag, etc.  I guess "Pretty Peaceful" means 2 or less invasions, since Saddam invaded one neighbor and fought them for 8 years with unknown (but hideously high) number of casualities and then two years after that invading a smaller neighbor.  

I seem to remember reading about 600,000 estimated Iraqi civilians dead.

You seem to imply that all those were caused by US forces.  I resent that.   How many were caused by Al-Queda, Baathists and other Terrorist/Militia groups.  The vast majority of casualities are NOT caused by US forces.  And Yes, I do find it sad.  But the amazing thing is that since "the surge", the level of violence has dropped.  Just like the media reporting about Gaza/Palistinians.  "17 Killed by Isreali Airstrikes" I read the other day.  How many Palistinians were killed by Palistinians that day ??  Buehler ?, Buehler ?, Anyone ?, Anyone ?.  

Iraq is a proxy war we're fighting on Isreal's behalf with our blood and money.

Yep, those damn Jews are at it again.  Oh wait, I'm one of them.  I must have missed that memo.  Again....  I'd like to hear what you think would happen if either Baghdad or Tehran lobbed a Nuke or Chemical missle into Tel Aviv ?? (HINT: as Tom Lehrer said back in 1965; "Israel's getting tense, Wants one in self defense. "The Lord's our shepherd," says the psalm, But just in case, we better get a bomb!")

Does anyone not remember what the world was like in 2002 ??  We had been smacked, hard, by a bunch of 3rd world A-holes who spent most of their time chasing goats and living in a cave. Then you look around and there's Saddam, thumbing his nose at the world, threatening to develop (more) WMDs.  In a critical part of the world.  Where he's already caused a buttload of problems.  And refuses to "Play Nice" with the US, the UN (except the ones taking bribes/kickbacks), his neighbors or anyone else for that matter.  So what do you do ??  Wait until he actually sets off a nuke/chem in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Isreal or New York or take out the madman before that happens ??   Anyone not think that taking out Hitler in say 1936 or 1937 would not have been a good idea      

It make it more difficult to convince the sheeple to give up more of their undeserved liberty if you kill off your best selling boogyman.

Yep, that what my buds who have served in Afghanistan tell me with a wink and a smile.  "We're not really trying to find OBL, we're just making it look like we're looking for him so that GWB, Cheney et al. can shred the Constitution."  I'll have to let them know that you've figured it out.  I wouldn't answer the door for anyone anymore if I was was you......  Which is exactly why we never caught Saddam... oh wait, we did catch him.....  Those damn low ranking enlisted guys, can't seem to follow orders "Look go see if you can "find" Saddam at this farmhouse.  Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.  But don't really find him."  

I wanted to join to help protect America from actual enemies, not people that may become enemies eventually (which is potentially everybody). I wanted to join to protect the ideals that were outlined in the constitution. I don't feel that our military is being used for its intended purpose and as such I don't want to contribute to that. Our military is not being used to protect this nation. It is not being used to fight for our freedoms,

I'm sorry to hear about your mom. But, throughout most of the past century the US military has not been used to fight for our freedoms, but to protect and liberate others.  Plus I'd rather fight the bastards in their backyards rather then in our frontyard.  

but Iraq is not a fight for this country.

How about England ? France ? Belguim ? Luxembourg ? Holland ? Italy ? Germany ? Phillipines ? Japan ? South Korea ? Vietnam ? Grenada ?  Panama ? Kuwait ?

Here's the difference: I took that oath.  I was willing to put aside my selfish desires and serve.  

I just refuse to stand by while those who wear the uniform and stand out there to protect you (whether you think their protecting you or not) are denigrated by those who have not served.

OOH-Rah, Sir, that was masterful.

Thank you, HOHRAH !!!