Author Topic: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog  (Read 16488 times)

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2008, 10:35:10 AM »
Quote
You'd probably want to leave the driveshaft in.

Why Huh?

I guess it would depend on the size of electric motor.  If it was too big, just bolt it in place of the transmission and keep the driveshaft.  Otherwise, bolting it directly to the differential would save moving parts and inertia.  Wheel-hub motors would be even better, but I'm talking about a shade-tree conversion of something like a 1970 Datsun p/u Wink


That Tata - I wonder, do they use a belt drive like snow machines in place of a transmission...?
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,280
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2008, 11:06:28 AM »
How -big- are the electric motors? What sort of horsepower would you need to move 2000 pounds (figuring on 1500 pounds, two "average" adults, and some stuff) at 60 mph? How much current would they draw? Because if you have to have a thousand pounds of generator, then that won't work...
 

 
Blog under construction

Grapeshot

  • New Member
  • Posts: 3
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2008, 01:16:48 PM »
Of course, you'd have to take that hunting while carrying these guns.  cheesy



Gasp a BLACK gun!
        Yata hey
Yata hey

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2008, 03:29:34 PM »
I don't see the smart part about the Smart Fortwo. It is only marginally more economic than Hyundai, but it is significantly more cramped, is more expensive by 1,000-4,000 dollars, has fewer features, burns more expensive gas (91 instead of 87), and offers less protection in accidents. They should change the name to "Stupid Fortwo".  laugh

As to models every year, it does seem like a horrible waste with the retooling and such. However, it is good if engineering is improved at a steady pace. The Cavalier for example has 10-year-old engineering, and is more thirsty and more expensive than the rivals of its class. What's the point with coming up with new models if it is the same old inefficient stuff under a slightly redesigned skin?

secamp32

  • New Member
  • Posts: 3
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2008, 03:40:42 PM »
You know, if one of the US automakers came up with a CHEAP car, they'd sell a bundle...
 
Make it any color you like, as long as it is white. Two doors. Four seats. Cheap seats - they don't have to be fancy.

Crank windows, no AC. No radio. No sculpted dashboard. Off the shelf gauges.

Manual steering (hey, it's a small car).

No carpet - textured floor.

Small engine. Plenty of oil capacity.
 

I had two cars just like that.  A Chevy Chevette and a VW Beatle.  They were fine when I was in HS and college but I don't think I'd want to commute 2 hours a day either one.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2008, 07:56:07 AM »
Quote
How -big- are the electric motors? What sort of horsepower would you need to move 2000 pounds (figuring on 1500 pounds, two "average" adults, and some stuff) at 60 mph? How much current would they draw? Because if you have to have a thousand pounds of generator, then that won't work...

The whole point is to have a genset and battery power.  The batteries act as sort of a "flywheel" so that the gas/diesel powered generator doesn't need to be nearly as powerful as a conventional drive system, in which the engine has to be big enough for the max power demands of the vehicle.

When you are starting from a stop, you might draw power off both the genset and the batteries, but when you're rolling along, more power is going into the batteries than what you're using.  The genset could even automatically cycle on and off as necessary, and the batteries could gain some charge back from the wheels on decelleration.

I'm not enough of an e/e to compute what's needed without doing some research.  Seems like you could double the mpg if the genset is half the size of a direct drive engine.  There would be some inefficiencies with generation, batteries, and conduction, but then you would eliminate the transmission and driveshafts - at least in a purpose built vehicle.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2008, 08:33:11 AM »
If efficiency is what we wish, then the answer would be burning the fuel in centralized chemical cells, then storing the released energy in batteries. Car refueling will involve exchanging discharged for charged batteries. Then we would also get all the benefits of electrical motors - the acceleration, reliability, longevity, and cleanliness.

The reason is that fuel cells are very efficient themselves (coefficient is in the 90s), because they burn at high temperature and because they are not thermodynamically limited by Carnot's cycle. By comparison, an internal combustion engine has efficiency coefficient in the 30s (a steam engine is even worse - maybe a few percent). Even if charging batteries will have some losses, this would still be the overall far more efficient fuel use.

Other reasons for centralization would be safety and the catalysts involved. I doubt most people will be comfortable with a 3000degC fuel cell in their trunk. Also, there is only that much accessible platinum in the world. Making millions of cars with separate fuel cells will be very wasteful and expensive.

The trick though is that before the economies of scale can kick in, such a business has to remain viable while growing enormously and establishing a network of battery exchange stations. As such, it would be a huge risk for private capital, and that is why it is not done. If the feds were any serious about energy policy, they would make a large package of tax exemptions etc. to help a business like that reach a critical mass. But, our politicians prefer autocolonoscopy to automotive solutions.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2008, 12:47:42 PM »
Quote
The trick though is that before the economies of scale can kick in, such a business has to remain viable while growing enormously and establishing a network of battery exchange stations.

Okay - while we're at it let's just put some giant solar panels in orbit and beam down energy to use wherever you need it.  No more batteries or extension cords  grin
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2008, 01:17:15 PM »
Quote
The trick though is that before the economies of scale can kick in, such a business has to remain viable while growing enormously and establishing a network of battery exchange stations.

Okay - while we're at it let's just put some giant solar panels in orbit and beam down energy to use wherever you need it.  No more batteries or extension cords  grin

That's been proposed many times, putting an enormous solar array in orbit with a microwave beam down to an antenna farm. The "green" sorts stand in the way every time, threatening lawsuits and discouraging anyone from investigating further.

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2008, 01:20:56 PM »
Actually, I am liking my idea more and more. If the batteries are just refueling, then they do not even need to be sold with the car. For a current hybrid, that's 8,000 dollars off the price. That will make the actual cars far more affordable.

The energy company will then essentially rent the batteries to the motorist, that rent being figured into the price of the "refueling". Safety and hazardous disposal would also be far more efficient because they will be handled by the energy company battery depots, rather than individual motorists, who on average are not qualified. With the increase in the price of energy sources, the company will be able to finance the battery purchase, maintenance, and replacement, especially if there are associated tax benefits. Economies of scale will kick in as well.

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2008, 01:22:06 PM »
The "green" sorts stand in the way every time, threatening lawsuits and discouraging anyone from investigating further.

Ain't that just the sweetest irony? I have just coined a new word: "greentard".  angel

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2008, 01:48:11 PM »
The "green" sorts stand in the way every time, threatening lawsuits and discouraging anyone from investigating further.

Ain't that just the sweetest irony? I have just coined a new word: "greentard".  angel

They've blocked any inroads into "nodding duck" sort of tidal generators, too. Oh, it can affect fish migration!... Tongue

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,280
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2008, 03:32:38 PM »
I wonder if someone could assemble a street legal vehicle using electric out of the Grainger catalog...

Blog under construction

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2008, 06:41:16 PM »
Quote
I wonder if someone could assemble a street legal vehicle using electric out of the Grainger catalog

In Montana you could for sure Wink
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2008, 05:33:13 PM »
Quote
The trick though is that before the economies of scale can kick in, such a business has to remain viable while growing enormously and establishing a network of battery exchange stations.

Okay - while we're at it let's just put some giant solar panels in orbit and beam down energy to use wherever you need it.  No more batteries or extension cords  grin

That's been proposed many times, putting an enormous solar array in orbit with a microwave beam down to an antenna farm. The "green" sorts stand in the way every time, threatening lawsuits and discouraging anyone from investigating further.

Plus, after watching Die Another Day, it makes me a little nervous, too.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: Jeep Concept Car = Halo Warthog
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2008, 10:16:24 AM »
Why Huh?

Generally an electric motor, while indeed smaller than a gasoline engine of similar power, is still a little hefty to add aftermarket anywhere near the differential

Quote
I guess it would depend on the size of electric motor.  If it was too big, just bolt it in place of the transmission and keep the driveshaft.  Otherwise, bolting it directly to the differential would save moving parts and inertia.  Wheel-hub motors would be even better, but I'm talking about a shade-tree conversion of something like a 1970 Datsun p/u Wink

That's pretty much the reason, the motor is still too large to fit underneath next to the differential.  Hub motors are both more expensive and less efficient than more traditional sorts of motors.  Also, keeping at least a bit of the tranny for a step-down gear is considered good.

Quote
That Tata - I wonder, do they use a belt drive like snow machines in place of a transmission...?

From the reading, yes, it would use a belt instead of a gear transmission.

Cannoneer, the problem with treating replacing batteries like refueling a car is weight - you'd need a heckofa crane to replace the batteries faster than what you could charge them using a high-power charging system.  We're talking about almost a thousand pounds of batteries in some cases.  In one case, a converter installing 300kg of batteries figures on 55km of range.  Even with NiMH delivering twice as much range by weight, and LiIon about double again, that's still a LOT of weight.  So much weight that you'd need to be careful about bracing and such.

Meanwhile you can fastcharge NiMH or LiIon in about a half hour, though it'd take some special wiring to do it.  Think of a stove plug X2.