Author Topic: I'm ready to fight the government  (Read 3062 times)

Monkeyleg

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« on: July 20, 2005, 02:10:04 PM »
I'm serious. Deadly serious. And over what some might think is a trivial matter.

The Wisconsin Department of Revenue has decided to go after people who have bought cigarettes online. The DOR apparently got its hands on a list of customers of an online cigarette store. The department has already sent out 500 letters to customers of that store and another store, and will be sending another 1500 letters out in the next two months.

Anyone who the department has found bought cigarettes online will have to pay the 77-cent per pack tax, plus sales tax, plus 18% interest, plus $20 per year in late fees.

The payments from the first 500 people are due July 29th. Anyone who doesn't "cough up" the money will be hit with a $25 per carton penalty, plus other costs.

The revenuers aren't going after people who bought books, CD's, Viagra, or anything else online. Just cigarettes.

My wife was literally crying when she showed me the newspaper story this morning. The medical bills that have been rolling in the last few months are really putting a strain on things, at a time when business is bad. If the revenuers come after us, we'd be forced to sell something major, such as my bike (1989 HD with 113,000 miles on it; not a lot of money there) or maybe her car, which I bought for her as a Christmas surprise in 2003.

But why should we do that? Why should I roll over for a government that has been hellbound to tax my habit, take the money and spend it on foolish projects, and then try to pass laws that prohibit me from smoking in public?

Further, why should I roll over for a government that's not going after porn, or gambling, or any other online vices? Just cigarettes.

Every mail-order and online sale is subject to a "use tax," and for decades, although the government has never gone after individuals for the use tax. I regularly pay such taxes for my business, because the state is careful to monitor that.

So, if I get one of the letters, my first recourse will be to find an attorney willing to work with me to appeal on the basis of selective enforcement of tax law.

If not, then I hope the revenuer who hassles me has the spine to be the first in the door ahead of the SWAT team.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2005, 04:13:39 PM »
I feel your pain, my friend.  

It seems it's SO selective, so arbitrary.

I just found this from Dr. Michael Eades, VERY well-known physician and author of the Protein Power series of diet books.  As someone who just had knee surgery and have a degenerative bone disease that is rapidly advancing the deterioration of my joints and causing huge pain, this is WAY serious to me.  They kicked this guy's door in because he was flagged for having LEGITIMATE Rx's for pain meds.  If it should happen to me, I don't think it'll be pretty.

"July 19, 2005
Doctors and pain medications

An interesting piece by John Tierney in todays New York Times made me reflect on the ongoing battle between physicians trying to help their patients deal with pain, drug seekers who are constantly trying to work physicians for narcotic pain medicines, and the members of various branches of law enforcement who are waging the war on drugs.

The piece entitled Punishing Pain is about a 46 year old man named Richard Paey who suffers from multiple sclerosis and developed chronic pain as the result of an automobile accident. Over time his pain became unbearable and he sought relief from a number of physicians. His intake of pain medicines increased and

    as he took more pills, Mr. Paey came under surveillance by police officers who had been monitoring the prescriptions. Although they found no evidence that he'd sold any of the drugs, they raided his home and arrested him.

    What followed was a legal saga pitting Mr. Paey against his longtime doctor (and a former friend of the Paeys), who denied at the trial that he had given Mr. Paey some of the prescriptions. Mr. Paey maintains that the doctor did approve the disputed prescriptions, and several pharmacists backed him up at the trial. Mr. Paey was convicted of forging prescriptions.

The upshot is that the wheelchair-bound Mr. Paey refused a plea bargain because he felt he was innocent and refused to plead guilty to a crime he didnt commit. He was sentenced under the mandatory drug sentencing laws to 25 years in prison, where he resides today. Ironically, hes getting better medication for his pain in prison than he was before his incarceration because the State of Florida is supplying him with a morphine pump, which allows him to increase his own medication as the pain increases.

Its been my experience that most doctors tend to under medicate for pain. My wife and I have a running joke about doctors and pain medicationswe can always tell what a doctor has experienced himself (or herself) by the medications this physician prescribes for others. If, for example, we come across a doctor who writes heavy doses of pain medications for migraine headaches, we can be pretty sure that that physician has herself been afflicted with migraine headaches. If a doc writes heavy pain meds for patients with back pain, we know that doc has himself experienced bad back pain. It would be great if all physiciansyours truly excludedcould experience the whole range of pains from various disorders so that they could prescribe accordingly.

My first tour of duty as a brand new surgery resident was on the general surgery ward that handled all the burn patients. Once theyve been resuscitated from the initial trauma of the burn, the major risk to burn patients is infection. At that time we tried to stave off infection by changing our patients burn dressings daily (and sometimes even twice daily), a lengthy process that sometimes took over an hour and was in most cases unbearably painful for the patients. I was appalled by the incredible pain we inflicted on these people, and set out to do something about it. (Im not trying to cast myself in the role of a hero here. I didnt have to fight the administration or anyone else to do this. In fact, no one really cared. I just thought that medicine had advanced a long way since the Middle Ages and that since we had the medications at our disposal to stop the pain, why should these poor patients have to endure the agony of these dressing changes.) I went down to the anesthesia department and talked to some folks there who designed an injectable cocktail for me. We started anesthetizing the patients, then changing their dressings. I believe it made a huge difference in their lives. Unfortunately, when I rotated off the burn service, I think the incoming residents went back to the previous practice. Its been so many years since all this happened that I have no idea what is done now.

The point of this is that one of the many things medical science can point to with pride is the development of drugs to stop pain. We need to make better use of this technology. Just a century and a half ago patients were faced with the choice of undergoing surgery without anesthesia (because it didnt exist) or dying from the disease they were suffering. Now sophisticated anesthesia is available so that surgery is totally painless. And oral and injectable painkillers keep discomfort to a minimum during the recovery period. So, why dont we use them more in an outpatient setting?

Doctors are reluctant to prescribe pain medications for a couple of reasons. All of us who have been in practice for any length of time have been hit up by drug seekers. My first experience was with a badly scarred thirty something guy who had by his telling been in a railroad accident. He certainly had the scars to prove something bad had happened to him. He came in with an empty prescription bottle for Demerol, a potent narcotic pain medication. The doctors name on the label was a well respected physician in town. The patient told me he was in extreme pain from all his previous injuries, and that his regular doctorthe guy on the labelwas out of town. (I tried to call this other doctor, but got his answering service.) I finally relented, gave the guy a prescription for more Demerol, and sent him on his way with instructions to see his regular physician soon. Later the receptionist told me that the guy told her he left his checkbook in the car, went out to get it, and never came back to pay for his office visit. Within days after this incident we started seeing all kinds of people in the clinic with severe pain of one kind or another who wanted Demerol. Suspecting what had happened, I called a friend at the police department, who confirmed my suspicions. As soon as I read off the names of the people who had come in, he identified them as drug users and drug dealers. A team went out and arrested them all for theft of services (they had all devised some way to get out of the clinic without paying). They all plead their offenses down, got off with a fine, word quickly got around, and we were never bothered again. An experience like this one, however, makes physicians leery about prescribing pain medications. And virtually all physicians in any kind of primary care setting have the same kind of stories to tell.

The second reason physicians are reluctant to prescribe pain meds is law enforcement. Lets suppose I had taken the easy way out with all these drug seekers and had just given them their prescriptions and avoided the conflict. Sooner or later one or more of them would have been caught doing something, and they would have had scripts for Demerol with my name on them. Then the police would have been beating on my door wondering why I had given these prescriptions to all these people who were obviously in good health. Ive had a number of physician friends that this has happened to. I even had one physician friend who had a long-awaited family vacation ruined because he was subpoenaed by the police to testify in one of these cases.

As a physician you find yourself caught up in trying to keep drugs out of the hands of drug seekers, keeping the police off your back, and medicating those who truly need it. Problem is in this scenario, it seems the patientsjust like the guy in the above New York Times articlealways end up the losers.

Whats the solution? I wish I knew for sure. If I had my way I would legalize drugs simply because legalizing drugs would at least remove the profit motive. I believe the entire war on drugs has been an utter disaster, serving only to relieve us of a lot of our freedoms under the guise of doing something noble. I have this argument often with my father, who is a firm believer in the war on drugs. I say my piece about the abridgment of freedoms, he counters with, Yeah, well how many of your freedoms have been lost? What is it that you want to do that you cant do because of the war on drugs? How have you been impacted directly/

I can only answer that I havent been impacted directly. I dont need to go get $10,000 out of the bank, but if I wanted to, I couldnt without filling out a form thanks to the war on drugs. That annoys me. When we got back from Europe a couple of weeks ago, we had to run the gauntlet of drug sniffing dogs as we got off the plane. That annoys me. (It especially annoys me when those resources could be better spent on bomb sniffing dogs that smell people before they get on the plane.) The fact that all these things annoy me isnt the point, however. The point is that (at least in my opinion) the loss of freedoms is a slippery slope, and once started down its often difficult to stop.

I doubt seriously that Mr. Paey ever thought he would find himself behind bars for 25 years for seeking relief from his pain."

Gewehr98

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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2005, 05:14:25 PM »
Quote
The medical bills that have been rolling in the last few months are really putting a strain on things, at a time when business is bad. If the revenuers come after us, we'd be forced to sell something major, such as my bike (1989 HD with 113,000 miles on it; not a lot of money there) or maybe her car, which I bought for her as a Christmas surprise in 2003.
I talked one of my fellow Air Force aviators out of smoking, after our flight surgeon gave his standard anti-smoking spiel.  He quit.  Then he noticed something peculiar - the money he saved each month from not buying cartons of cigarettes was the same as the monthly payment on a new Ford Ranger.  He's still smoke free, and still has that Ranger.

There was some irony in your bad luck story above, and I see similarities with my own family, hence my posting.  It sounds as if you're forced to cough up the cigarette taxes, then you'll have to sell a vehicle.  And probably continue smoking?  Long-term, it's just another medical bill one will have to save for eventually, too.  Unless you're one of the lucky ones with aggressive lung cancer, and die without lingering too long. It's a lifestyle choice, I understand that.  My parents each smoked a pack + each day, it was all the incentive I needed not to. With wife #2, my two stepsons smoke like chimneys, and cannot for the life of them understand why their meager paychecks are spent so soon, as they're trying to mooch cigarette money from her and I, going through the sofa cushions for loose change, etc.  I've already told them not to bother their mother and I when they're hospitalized with emphysema down the road, and to be quick about their eventual departure, no messy and prolonged bad acting, thank you.  Sad

(Wisconsin resident here, I though property taxes there were bad enough...)
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RevDisk

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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2005, 05:28:14 PM »
And people wonder why I roll my own cigarettes and pay for everything IN CASH.  Think of it as 'reloading' for smoking.

I pay roughly 30-60 cents per day for my smoking habit.   I spent at least a buck a day on Mtn Dew or other caffinated beverages.


Consider buying a machine that loads your own cigarette.  They run $5-30 give or take.   Go with the more expensive model.  Tubes run $2-4 per 200.  Less if you hunt around or buy online.  Wink
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2005, 05:50:04 PM »
They are going after you because you are a law-breaker.  Your state law probably specifies that for mail order items the citizen's responsibility is to fill out the proper forms and send in the tax money.
The reason they pick cigarettes is 1) the tax on cigarettes is higher than on anything else sent into the state; and 2) cigarette smokers occupy a place slightly above child molester in the public imagination.
That said, the internet is showing up the futility of state sales taxes.  My state (Tenn) has one of the highest sales taxes in the country and it sux.  I hate sales taxes and especially those that favor one item over another or penalize an item for some moral reason or other.
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Monkeyleg

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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2005, 05:54:12 PM »
Gewehr98, I didn't intend for this to be a thread debating the evils of cigarettes. Rather, it's my rant about my own state government going too far (not that they haven't done so years ago).

Substitute "gun accessories" for "cigarettes" in this rant. It's not a stretch of the imagination by any means.

How hard would it be for a state government to get the names and states of those who have purchased gun accessories from, say, Brownell's and go after those purchasers for taxes that 99.9% of the rest of state residents do not pay?

It's becoming increasingly easy for states to do so. Thus, if they're allowed to do so, it won't be long before your particular ox is gored.

This decision was pushed behind the scenes by the lobbyists for the WI Grocery Association, many of whose members have lost income on cigarette sales to online sources.

And that point reminds me of all of the posters on The High Road who said that Walmart, Galyan's, Sportsmen's Warehouse and other discount chains were simply giving the public what they want. And that the independent gun shop owner must adapt or collapse.

I don't remember if you chimed in on any of those threads or, if so, what your position was.

However, it would seem to me that there's a double or even triple standard going on here.

And, frankly, it wouldn't matter to me whether our financial situation was good or bad. The WI state government has been taking my cigarette tax money and using it to build a multi-million dollar stadium where smoking is prohibited, to pay for billboards with gross images and a tagline that says "kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray," and for promoting legislation to ban smoking in all public buildings.

How different would that be from your state government placing a tax on your ammunition, and using that tax to promote "gun-free" zones, to pay for anti-gun advertising, and to discourage people from shooting?

Oh, that's right. We've been there before. Wink

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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2005, 05:54:30 PM »
Quote from: Monkeyleg
...The revenuers aren't going after people who bought books, CD's, Viagra, or anything else online. Just cigarettes.

...But why should we do that? Why should I roll over for a government that has been hellbound to tax my habit, take the money and spend it on foolish projects, and then try to pass laws that prohibit me from smoking in public?

Further, why should I roll over for a government that's not going after porn, or gambling, or any other online vices? Just cigarettes...
I hope that now you can see the government for what it is - a violent, criminal gang. Fight it the best you can but never forget that the state is your enemy. First cigarettes, then the other things. It makes no difference to them. Whatever you will give, they will try to take. And don't take it out on porn, gambling, drugs or any other vice. None should be taxed or criminal. They are just the way others choose to live. Smoking is just the one they think they can get away with now.

brimic

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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2005, 10:05:37 PM »
Quote
How different would that be from your state government placing a tax on your ammunition, and using that tax to promote "gun-free" zones, to pay for anti-gun advertising, and to discourage people from shooting?
With the lefties that we have in the statehouse, its only a matter of time before that happens... they have to wait and see how the cigarette collections turn out first.

BTW, Monkeyleg, do you have any low value guns that you can take to ALD Mcgee's gun buyback? It would be like scamming the lefties who are scamming you in order to pay the money they are trying to extort.
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garyk/nm

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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2005, 02:32:30 AM »
I don't know if this is an option for you, but I have been able to significantly lower my tobacco costs by shopping at reservation smoke shops. No taxes. I pay $10/carton there for what costs $40/carton retail.  I pay cash, so no records.

As to the ridiculous tax grab by your state,  you know and they know that it will cost you more to fight it than to pay it. Bullying is bullying, no matter how you dress it up. Your only hope (slim) is some sort of class-action to defray the legal costs. Of course the state will always find a way (let's pass a new law!) to get the $$ out of you, so even if you win, you lose.

Harold Tuttle

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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2005, 04:40:30 AM »
MOVE to a state that respects you
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InfidelSerf

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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2005, 08:56:01 AM »
Quote
MOVE to a state that respects you
And what do you do when you made the 50th move in an attempt to find a state that "respects you"

I don't smoke and find it a nasty habit (I used to YEARS ago)  but I would die fighting for a smoker's right to obtain and ingest the stuff.
This is one of many instances nationwide that is an alarming attack by our federal and state governments.

Not to be a doomsdayer here but its long overdue for another "Boston Tea Party"  

Just read the Declaration of Independence again and ask yourself if we are not in the EXACT same position as our fore fathers.
Our religious beliefs are being attacked on a regular basis and we are being severely overtaxed.. and taxed without representation.
(Example the situation here in KS where the judiciary*unelected* is dictating and determining taxes)

Things have gotten WAY out of control... and we as gun owners need to recognize that we are the final breaking point... we are the ones who believe in the Constitution and we are the ones that need to rise up and put a stop to this blatant abuse of federal and state power.
We are the people.
 
So shut off the damn tv... stop following sports stats and lets focus on saving our country from slipping into its final chapter in history.

That said.. I need to answer the door...*hmm I could have sworn I heard a helicopter a second ago*

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The hour is fast approaching,on which the Honor&Success of this army,and the safety of our bleeding Country depend.Remember~Soldiers,that you are Freemen,fighting for the blessings of Liberty-that slavery will be your portion,and that of your posterity,if you do not acquit yourselves like men.GW8/76

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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2005, 01:36:07 PM »
Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience"  is always good for a re-read.

I figure I do what I do to hide in plain site.  Not my fault if the Gubmint can't find me. Cash, buy from folks you know/trust, hear nothing , see nothing, less paperdrill means less papertrail.

I just *moved* some firearms for a friend, out of town.  I needed smokes while ou tof town and well, I be damned if by the carton they are not cheaper. *wink*.

Running Whiskey, guns and tobacco are time honored professions.  Proven when the Gumbit tries to control these - well...folks always manage to have these in hard times...

NOT advocating anything - just saying sometimes it is best to keep private about matters.  Gubmint don't tell me everything it is doing...why should I?

Find a old Bookie, if you get to know one, listen to how business has been done  for years . Some lessons are timeless.  You will not see a bookie with a PC or notebook either - not for business anyway. Many do business in  Vegas for instance like when a big fight is on - how is that busisness conducted ? *grin*

This is what frustrates the Gubmint.  These War on "[]" are really difficult because goods and services are not traceable.  These laws for taxes  are BS and folks do not prepare ahead of time.  As more stringent controls on - you name it- from smokes to fertilizer increases, required Real ID - it is going to get real interesting - fast.

Now lets say a fellow makes ammo, another fellow  exchanges a Roller , papers, filters and tins of tobacco for  the ammo.  Hey what a person(s) do/does  in private is private right?

Think outside the box. Don't spend time in a box.

garyk/nm

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« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2005, 01:58:17 PM »
sm,
You are a wise person. Smiley

Oleg Volk

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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2005, 03:51:08 PM »
sm, great post.

Killing revenuers may be better for the soul but it tends to attract attention.

Monkeyleg

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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2005, 02:28:54 PM »
Very true, Oleg.

This action by Governor Doyle's Department of Revenue took an unusual turn yesterday when he announced that he would order the DOR to not go forward with the plan.

When I read the first news article about the crackdown in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on Tuesday, something seemed "hinky." (Yeah, I know that Tommy Lee Jones said in the movie "US Marshalls" that "hinky" is not a word, but it has been to me).

Anywho, after I read the article, I was mad. But I told my wife that something was wrong. The reporter had talked to a 77 year-old woman on Social Security who was almost in tears about the prospects of having to pay the taxes. The Journal Sentinel, I told my wife, is up to something, but I don't know what.

Given that the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel openly favors any and all restrictions on smoking and smokers, the fact that they ran an "advocacy journalism" article, replete with heart-tugging quotes from an elderly woman, made me suspicious.

Doyle's announcement confirmed my suspicions, and here's what I think went down: the DOR did indeed get the list of cigarette buyers; Doyle (whose approval numbers need help desperately for his re-election campaign next year) took a look, and decided it would be suicide to pursue the tax-collection route; he allowed some letters to be sent; his people fed the Journal Sentinel the story of an elderly woman; and he then rode in as the knight in shining armor.

Jim Doyle is the Journal Sentinel's "boy." And I sincerely believe that the newspaper was either complicit in this or a willing dupe.

I'm glad that I won't be forced to take on the revenuers. But Doyle scored big with this one, and it only helps him in his bid for re-election next year. And that would mean four more years with no concealed carry.

Talk about mixed emotions.

Standing Wolf

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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2005, 05:31:56 PM »
Quote
Jim Doyle is the Journal Sentinel's "boy." And I sincerely believe that the newspaper was either complicit in this or a willing dupe.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn the governor and some high up in the newspaper concocted the entire deal. They're some of the lowest of the low.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.