Author Topic: Are we a nation of child-men?  (Read 10956 times)

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Are we a nation of child-men?
« on: January 31, 2008, 01:25:40 AM »
Quote from: Dallas Morning News
Rod Dreher: What child-men need is some tradition

What these men need is some authoritative tradition, says ROD DREHER


12:00 AM CST on Sunday, January 27, 2008

Some years ago, a young painter about to complete art school complained bitterly to me about his education.

"They told us all that we were geniuses the first day we showed up," he said. "They never taught us the basics. Whatever we wanted to do, our teachers thought was brilliant. Now I'm about to graduate, and I don't know much more about being an artist now than when I started."

The young artist's point was actually more profound than I realized then and helps explain the pathetic phenomenon of child-men  those woebegone males who seem stuck in perpetual adolescence.

This unhappy student rightly recognized that the preceding generation  the baby boomers  had failed in its responsibility to pass on to him a tradition. Had his art teachers only drilled him in tradition, they likely would have bludgeoned his creativity with mannerism. Instead, they declared tradition irrelevant and made each student's individual desire the only necessary standard. Without a tradition against which to measure oneself as an artist, there is nothing to learn, no impetus to learn it and no penalty for not learning it.

The student asked a question  What is an artist?  for which his culture no longer provided an authoritative answer. But if you ask a far more important question  What is a man?  the culture comes up equally short, and for the same reason.

To be sure, the definition of manhood is culture-bound and has been talked about since time immemorial. The first-century Roman teacher Quintillian warned against spoiling boys. "If the child crawls on purple," the tutor wrote, referencing the imperial color, "what will he not desire when he comes to manhood?"

"We have no right to be surprised," he continued, speaking of boys who don't know how to be men. "It was we that taught them: They hear us use such words, they see our mistresses and minions; every dinner party is loud with foul songs, and things are presented to their eyes of which we should blush to speak. Hence springs habit, and habit in time becomes second nature."

Today's child-men have been formed by a culture that has lost  or, rather, thrown away  a relatively fixed standard of manhood. It used to be that virtue was the measure of a man. Was a man just? Was he brave (and not necessarily in terms of physical courage)? Was he honorable in his dealings with those weaker than he? Did he respect women? Did he believe in something higher than himself? Did he submit to the concepts of duty and respect?

It's not that all men, or even most, lived by this general code. It's that they recognized that they would be judged by it, and judged themselves by it.

That's mostly gone, replaced by a therapeutic model in which the autonomous self is its own judge, and personal satisfaction is the measure of a life well lived. For 40 years now, we have been living through a cultural and psychological revolution that has rendered young men (indeed, most people) incapable of recognizing and submitting to authority. As social critic Philip Rieff foresaw at the dawn of this revolution, the loosening of traditional constraints would make man free, but it would be a liberty fraught with anxiety, even psychological paralysis.

Which brings us to our latter-day child-men, the wayward sons of a generation that crawled on purple and never got over the experience. Quintillian and his successors through the ages knew that the process of becoming a man requires a juvenile male to subordinate his own desires to an objective code of conduct  which is to say, some sort of higher authority. In this sense, the self could only be understood and realized in relation to one's community and its values.

The culture warriors of the previous generation were not wrong to question conformity, but they went too far. They have deprived their sons of authoritative tradition, both in word and example, and with it the ability to transcend the adolescent state. Much in our dominant culture conspires to keep young men in a permanent state of adolescence: conscious only of their desires and the impulse to fulfill them. This dependency is tailor-made for a consumerist economy built on creating and exploiting wants. Making the world safe for big business, no doubt, wasn't what the '60s generation had in mind, but it's a little late for do-overs.

The fathers of today's child-men gave to their sons the freedom to choose their own paths through life. But how to choose and what to choose? On that, the gray ponytails must remain silent. All they have is the hope that, having turned their sons loose in the world without a map, habituated to the idea that their maps are useless, that the young men find their way out of the wilderness.

Rod Dreher is a Dallas Morning News editorial columnist. His e-mail address is rdreher@dallas news.com.


Your thoughts?........
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,423
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2008, 01:42:35 AM »
Yes. 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2008, 02:09:13 AM »
No.  Total nonsense.

Chris

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2008, 02:14:05 AM »
Funny.  I'm actually reading a book right now about the thought of using rites of passage as a way to transition boys to men. 
Boy's Passage, Man's Journey
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,367
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2008, 02:48:29 AM »
Chris is actually far more polite about the concept that I would be.

Crock o'crapola comes to mind...
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2008, 03:04:15 AM »
Okay...crapola, Why?

My generation and the one's coming after have been raised on everyone is special, everyone gets a trophy even when you lose, instant gratification and that food comes from the grocery store.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2008, 03:06:32 AM »
Name a "tradition" in today's society that marks a boy's transition to manhood.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2008, 03:10:31 AM »
Name a "tradition" in today's society that marks a boy's transition to manhood.....

There is none.  Today everyone thinks that getting laid, getting drunk, using drugs, entering military service or learning to drive makes them a man.  Then, they put Truck Nutz on thier lifted 4x4, expect everyone around them to bend to thier will, and let thier children play video games for 8 hours a day while sucking down Mt. Dew and stuffing cheetos in thier pieholes.

Most of the "sane" men my age I know grew up doing things with thier fathers.  They learned traditon from them.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Joe Demko

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 385
  • Marko Kloos was right about you.
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2008, 03:22:49 AM »
"Doing things with dad" is a pretty new idea itself.  Men my father's age, if you talk to them, will mostly tell you about their father being at work in the mines/factory/farm for long gruelling shifts.  When dad got home, he was tired.  He ate and rested for the next shift.  Those were absolutely the glory days of children being seen and not heard.  Do stuff with the kids?  Yeah, right.  When working class men had any leisure time to "do stuff" they did it with their buddies.  Typically, it was not family-friendly activity.

Don't romanticize the past into something it wasn't.  That article is stuff and nonsense.
That's right... I'm a Jackbooted Thug AND a Juvenile Indoctrination Technician.  Deal with it.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,367
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2008, 03:43:59 AM »
First off, the entire basis of the article to me appears to be flawed by a GIGANTIC misinterpretation of information.

The author is saying that there's no ritualistic passing of traditions along to the next generation...

But his young artist is saying this: "They never taught us the basics. Whatever we wanted to do, our teachers thought was brilliant. Now I'm about to graduate, and I don't know much more about being an artist now than when I started."

Basics are NOT traditions! Basics are the fundamental foundation of something. Case in point, a basic tenet of art that needs to be taught is vanishing point perspective.

That's a basic, but it's NOT a tradition, at least not the kind of tradition that would magically turn a boy into a man.

Everything else sort of collapses around this crucial misinterpretation.



Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2008, 04:04:48 AM »
I don't know what art school this guy went to, but the art classes I had, the professors were tough.

I mean, literally, they'd tear your work in half and give you a dressing-down worthy of a drill sergeant, telling you just what was wrong with your work, what the flaws were that you didn't see. You learned to accept criticism that way.

Very important job skill for commercial graphic designers, because the CEO/art director/etc will figuratively, if not literally shred your "masterpiece" and tell you to start again.

If someone thinks they're special and everything they do is wonderful, they're going to fail out of the corporate creative world nearly instantly. The real world hires artists, not artistes.


Racehorse

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 829
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2008, 05:36:51 AM »
I don't know what art school this guy went to, but the art classes I had, the professors were tough.

I mean, literally, they'd tear your work in half and give you a dressing-down worthy of a drill sergeant, telling you just what was wrong with your work, what the flaws were that you didn't see. You learned to accept criticism that way.

Very important job skill for commercial graphic designers, because the CEO/art director/etc will figuratively, if not literally shred your "masterpiece" and tell you to start again.

If someone thinks they're special and everything they do is wonderful, they're going to fail out of the corporate creative world nearly instantly. The real world hires artists, not artistes.



I have to agree with this. I had several art classes in college, and my experience was similar. All I can say is that this kid must have gone to a pretty crappy school or not paid attention to what his teachers were telling him. Either that or he was a no-talent hack and blaming it on the school and society is his way to make himself feel better.

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2008, 05:40:52 AM »
I think you guys are focusing on the wrong portion of the article.  The artist's story is a parable and not the point by itself.

I still disagree with the point of the article. Smiley

Chris

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,367
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2008, 05:48:58 AM »
It's not a parable when he uses it as a support for his argument and isn't even bright enough to realize that it points to the wrong problem.

Of course, maybe had he had someone to pass man reporter traditions on to him...  rolleyes
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Racehorse

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 829
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2008, 05:50:56 AM »
I think you guys are focusing on the wrong portion of the article.  The artist's story is a parable and not the point by itself.

I still disagree with the point of the article. Smiley

Chris

Actually, I think the last part of my comment is relevant to the point of the article. Blaming it on society is always a great cop-out to avoid personal responsibility. Yes, society plays a role. Yes, the quality of parenting plays a role. But each individual is still responsible for their own actions. If someone is stuck in adolescence, blaming it on others is a natural. But in reality, it's their own fault. Plenty of boys had crappy parents or no parents and became men just fine.

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2008, 05:52:27 AM »
Hmm.  Guess I didn't interpret the article in the same way.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2008, 05:55:20 AM »
Okay...crapola, Why?

My generation and the one's coming after have been raised on everyone is special, everyone gets a trophy even when you lose, instant gratification and that food comes from the grocery store.


Well I'm one in that generation that thinks differently and I get looked down a lot by my peers because of it. I've been call cold hearted and not a team player because of it. I try to explain to my peers that there are clear winners and losers in life, once you see that you can succeed. I use a lot more words and examples but you get the point.

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

Dntsycnt

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2008, 06:02:08 AM »
Yeah...that article was pretty nonsensical.

Marvin Dao

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 128
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2008, 07:04:21 AM »
Same subject, second (and much longer) verse. Different tact though. Less blame on previous generations and upbringing, more blame on media and knocks on men in general.

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,213
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2008, 08:10:27 AM »
As a working artist, what I see are a lot of kids who go to kollidge for four years, and spend it doing political enlightenment, wearing black, attending orgies, deciding that they actually _are_ smarter than everyone else, and learning how to create page layouts that look "interesting," but which do not communicate for squat.
 
Blog under construction

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2008, 08:35:55 AM »
learning how to create page layouts that look "interesting," but which do not communicate for squat.

No truer words have ever been spoken....
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2008, 08:53:56 AM »
Name a "tradition" in today's society that marks a boy's transition to manhood.....
I assume you mean American society.  I would say getting your first car, going off to school, getting your first gun, getting laid for the first time, having your first beer, or a mulitude of other tings.  It depends on what you define as a man and what you think.  It is a highly subjective topic.

I would agree though that the older generation should not be blaming the younger generations for the younger generations faults as they look to their fathers and ancestors for guidance.  We need only look at the children of the 60s and 70s to see why our generation is screwed up.  They need to take the blame for what happened to this country.

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2008, 08:55:34 AM »
As a working artist, what I see are a lot of kids who go to kollidge for four years, and spend it doing political enlightenment, wearing black, attending orgies, deciding that they actually _are_ smarter than everyone else, and learning how to create page layouts that look "interesting," but which do not communicate for squat.

Most of that sort got their ass fired when the dotcoms fell, thankfully. Look at how many companies have gone from pretentious, ridiculous web pages to simpler, useful ones.

Most all companies now want something called a "successful campaign" on your resume.

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2008, 09:14:51 AM »
Quote
"They told us all that we were geniuses the first day we showed up," he said. "They never taught us the basics. Whatever we wanted to do, our teachers thought was brilliant. Now I'm about to graduate, and I don't know much more about being an artist now than when I started."

This has a ring of truth to it. I never heard a professor demolish a piece in critique. But I never did either - most of the time the work wasn't laughable or godawful, it just wasn't inspired enough to merit comment.

But this is the way of art (and arguably everything) - 99% isn't going to be spectacular. As it has always been.

Quote
The young artist's point was actually more profound than I realized then and helps explain the pathetic phenomenon of child-men  those woebegone males who seem stuck in perpetual adolescence.

I am gleefully stuck in my "perpetual adolescence." Don't want a family or responsibilities, enjoy the theoretical ability to pack up and haul butt out of town when I choose.


I didn't actually read beyond that, though. People whining about the DECLINE OF CIVILIZATION/MANNERS/MANHOOD/etc. just bores me to tears.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2008, 09:30:03 AM »
This has a ring of truth to it. I never heard a professor demolish a piece in critique. But I never did either - most of the time the work wasn't laughable or godawful, it just wasn't inspired enough to merit comment.

Then you didn't go to a real art school or real art classes.

I'm sure there's some "Everyone is special" PC academies out there, but they don't prepare you for reality at all. Someone who had that sort of "art" education would be fired the first time an art director shredded their piece and they talked back and told them they "didn't understand it".