Author Topic: Are we a nation of child-men?  (Read 10957 times)

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2008, 09:41:41 AM »
I never took a 'commercial art' class, no.

Never saw the point of getting into graphic design or photography where I'd be reporting to or appeasing an art director/advertising scumbug/etc.. If the goal is to grind it out in the bidness world, there are easier, more lucrative paths that I would choose.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Tuco

  • Fastest non-sequitur in the West.
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,107
  • If you miss you had better miss very well
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2008, 10:54:53 AM »
Your thoughts?........

Garbage, Balderdash, Tripe - 1989 psychobabble ala Sam Keen / Robert Bly.

It is up to each man to come to terms with what it means to be a man before he dies.  Some do, some dont

Some join the Marine Corps;

Some read Kipling;

Some work in a Steel Mill;

Some become a Physician;

Some abuse cocaine and alcohol;

Some go to Art school.

Some find out and some never do.  It is not the fault of our fathers.  The responsibility falls squarely upon the shoulders of the individual.

Soakers, a man.
7-11 was a part time job.

JohnBT

  • New Member
  • Posts: 55
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2008, 04:15:58 PM »
"What is an artist?"

I can't explain it, but I know one when I see it.

John in Richmond
Home to the VCU art school and world famous sculpture department. Hi Joe. 

doc2rn

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 164
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2008, 04:49:56 PM »
Art, I had to take one of those classes. Between 40hrs/ wk and 15 credit hrs, I get maybe an hr a day with my daughter. Before that I was working 2 full time jobs, one to pay the sitter the other to put a roof over our heads and food in our bellies. If companies salaries had kept up with inflation we wouldn't be in this recession. Instead of treating employees better things just got better at the top.We have become so accustomed to take the meager scraps we have been given, that we have deprived ourselves of the right to be paid an honest wage.

LadySmith

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,166
  • Veni, Vidi, Jactavi Calceos
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2008, 11:32:09 PM »
I agree with what Two Cold Soakers wrote.

Besides, if you really want to get the measure of men, you ask their women.
Rogue AI searching for amusement and/or Ellie Mae imitator searching for critters.
"What doesn't kill me makes me stronger...and it also makes me a cat-lover" - The Viking
According to Ben, I'm an inconvenient anomaly (and proud of it!).

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2008, 01:05:11 AM »
Art, I had to take one of those classes. Between 40hrs/ wk and 15 credit hrs, I get maybe an hr a day with my daughter. Before that I was working 2 full time jobs, one to pay the sitter the other to put a roof over our heads and food in our bellies. If companies salaries had kept up with inflation we wouldn't be in this recession. Instead of treating employees better things just got better at the top.We have become so accustomed to take the meager scraps we have been given, that we have deprived ourselves of the right to be paid an honest wage.

The only problem with trickle-down economics is when the top doesn't let it trickle down.....

....human beings have morals......corporations do not.......
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,760
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2008, 04:28:13 AM »
Art, I had to take one of those classes. Between 40hrs/ wk and 15 credit hrs, I get maybe an hr a day with my daughter. Before that I was working 2 full time jobs, one to pay the sitter the other to put a roof over our heads and food in our bellies. If companies salaries had kept up with inflation we wouldn't be in this recession. Instead of treating employees better things just got better at the top.We have become so accustomed to take the meager scraps we have been given, that we have deprived ourselves of the right to be paid an honest wage.

The only problem with trickle-down economics is when the top doesn't let it trickle down.....

....human beings have morals......corporations do not.......
I think the theory is that if the top doesn't reward the employees, they are not the only employers out there. 
I don't see what you are seeing apparently.   
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2008, 05:08:03 AM »
Art, I had to take one of those classes. Between 40hrs/ wk and 15 credit hrs, I get maybe an hr a day with my daughter. Before that I was working 2 full time jobs, one to pay the sitter the other to put a roof over our heads and food in our bellies. If companies salaries had kept up with inflation we wouldn't be in this recession. Instead of treating employees better things just got better at the top.We have become so accustomed to take the meager scraps we have been given, that we have deprived ourselves of the right to be paid an honest wage.

The only problem with trickle-down economics is when the top doesn't let it trickle down.....

....human beings have morals......corporations do not.......

They don't need them. Corporations exist for profit.

If they treat their employees badly, their products will be shoddy. If they put out shoddy products, consumers will buy someone else's products. That's how the marketplace works.

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2008, 05:18:39 AM »
Art, I had to take one of those classes. Between 40hrs/ wk and 15 credit hrs, I get maybe an hr a day with my daughter. Before that I was working 2 full time jobs, one to pay the sitter the other to put a roof over our heads and food in our bellies. If companies salaries had kept up with inflation we wouldn't be in this recession. Instead of treating employees better things just got better at the top.We have become so accustomed to take the meager scraps we have been given, that we have deprived ourselves of the right to be paid an honest wage.

The only problem with trickle-down economics is when the top doesn't let it trickle down.....

....human beings have morals......corporations do not.......

Bullshit. 
Wife and I did pretty good last year.  And we're already doing better this year.
You wanna know how we spend our money?
Private preschool. 
Housekeeper
lawn service
3 office staff.
So, by our hard labor in building a successful business, we're employing 3 people directly.  And we're pumping money into 3 other businesses.  Not to mention the amount of money we spend in the economy for things like office supplies.  If we werent running a business, none of that would happen.
I challenge you to employee three people.  Our payroll liability for this year is going to be around 100k. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2008, 06:45:49 AM »
Art, I had to take one of those classes. Between 40hrs/ wk and 15 credit hrs, I get maybe an hr a day with my daughter. Before that I was working 2 full time jobs, one to pay the sitter the other to put a roof over our heads and food in our bellies. If companies salaries had kept up with inflation we wouldn't be in this recession. Instead of treating employees better things just got better at the top.We have become so accustomed to take the meager scraps we have been given, that we have deprived ourselves of the right to be paid an honest wage.

The only problem with trickle-down economics is when the top doesn't let it trickle down.....

....human beings have morals......corporations do not.......

Bullshit. 
Wife and I did pretty good last year.  And we're already doing better this year.
You wanna know how we spend our money?
Private preschool. 
Housekeeper
lawn service
3 office staff.
So, by our hard labor in building a successful business, we're employing 3 people directly.  And we're pumping money into 3 other businesses.  Not to mention the amount of money we spend in the economy for things like office supplies.  If we werent running a business, none of that would happen.
I challenge you to employee three people.  Our payroll liability for this year is going to be around 100k. 


Your example is the way it's supposed to work....the way Reagan meant it to work. The problem today is that the corporate top is taking the tax breaks and profits and investing them off-shore or into areas that don't benefit the national economy. As a result, we're losing our manufacturing base, our skilled production workers, and our thriving middle class.

Trickle-down is supposed to benefit American workers.....not Chinese slave labor or illegal aliens.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2008, 08:16:30 AM »
So than penalize the abusers, not the rest of us.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2008, 12:14:31 PM »
I agree with what Two Cold Soakers wrote.

Besides, if you really want to get the measure of men, you ask their women.
  Some of us have two or three women though...

Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2008, 12:17:39 PM »
Art, I had to take one of those classes. Between 40hrs/ wk and 15 credit hrs, I get maybe an hr a day with my daughter. Before that I was working 2 full time jobs, one to pay the sitter the other to put a roof over our heads and food in our bellies. If companies salaries had kept up with inflation we wouldn't be in this recession. Instead of treating employees better things just got better at the top.We have become so accustomed to take the meager scraps we have been given, that we have deprived ourselves of the right to be paid an honest wage.

The only problem with trickle-down economics is when the top doesn't let it trickle down.....

....human beings have morals......corporations do not.......

Bullshit. 
Wife and I did pretty good last year.  And we're already doing better this year.
You wanna know how we spend our money?
Private preschool. 
Housekeeper
lawn service
3 office staff.
So, by our hard labor in building a successful business, we're employing 3 people directly.  And we're pumping money into 3 other businesses.  Not to mention the amount of money we spend in the economy for things like office supplies.  If we werent running a business, none of that would happen.
I challenge you to employee three people.  Our payroll liability for this year is going to be around 100k. 


Your example is the way it's supposed to work....the way Reagan meant it to work. The problem today is that the corporate top is taking the tax breaks and profits and investing them off-shore or into areas that don't benefit the national economy. As a result, we're losing our manufacturing base, our skilled production workers, and our thriving middle class.

Trickle-down is supposed to benefit American workers.....not Chinese slave labor or illegal aliens.....
  That is the inherent nature of capitalism though, and it is completely American to benefit Chinese and Undocumented workers because they are in affect working for the economy by working for less money.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,424
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2008, 01:02:26 PM »
"Doing things with dad" is a pretty new idea itself.  Men my father's age, if you talk to them, will mostly tell you about their father being at work in the mines/factory/farm for long gruelling shifts.  When dad got home, he was tired.  He ate and rested for the next shift.  Those were absolutely the glory days of children being seen and not heard.  Do stuff with the kids?  Yeah, right.  When working class men had any leisure time to "do stuff" they did it with their buddies.  Typically, it was not family-friendly activity.


"Doing things with dad" described a typical boyhood, prior to the Industrial Revolution.  In those days, boys typically followed their fathers to the fields, or worked with them all day in the family business (black-smithing, weaving, what-have-you).  Notable exceptions would be those who were apprenticed at an early age, to someone other than their father. 

I would guess things were similar in pastoral or "hunter-gatherer" societies. 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Strings

  • Guest
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2008, 01:51:52 PM »
>Some of us have two or three women though...<

Doesn't matter: all mine have the same opinion of me...

Caimlas

  • New Member
  • Posts: 18
    • BoiledFrog.US Forums
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2008, 02:26:23 PM »
I absolutely agree with the assessment in the article. The current generation (say, 18-30 year old men) is, as the movie says, a generation of men raised by women. As a generation, we have no male tradition handed down to us; we've been left to create ourselves, because what we've been told we should be isn't even a biological possibility for most of us - because we've been told to, basically, be women.

As far as the artists' gripe about being hung out to dry, that's precisely what has happened to us. We've been told, from a very young age, that the path to success is to go get good grades, go to college, and then "rake in the big bucks". Never mind the fact that most college and college preparatory information has been increasingly targeted towards women; never mind that there is no emphasis whatsoever in schooling on deductive problem solving, or on 3-dimensional analysis and thought processes (ie anything to do with the real world) - because those are, predominantly, male traits and skills. (Though thankfully, there's still some inductive problem solving discussed - albeit not much.)

I grew up in a family with a grandmother who was a public school educator; she retired when I was about 12. I was told - and still am told to this day - that the road to success is to go through the motions of school, excel, get into a good college, excel in a field that pays well, and then get a good, comfortable job - preferably with a big, stable company that you can stay with until you retire or with the government. This is the same basic message I received from many teachers while in school. You're not told that there's a glut of college graduates these days, or that any job you get directly out of college will pay only marginally more than an entry level position not requiring a degree, or requiring something like an associates/trade degree. You're not told that there's a complete glut of people out there with business degrees, various art-related degrees, and anything to do with the humanities. You're not told that the utility of a masters or doctorate degree is fairly marginal, or that research positions (in industry or education) are slim to nil.

They basically lead you to assume that a college degree, regardless in what it is, will provide you with a free lunch ticket, regardless of your talent (because you're special and unique, of course), and that the environment you'll be entering into will be one where your school hands you a job in a 1950s business environment, with 1980s-1990s innovation, and 1990s money. From where I sit, they're basically setting up students for "socialist disillusion", what with the excessive helping of such dogma received in colleges and their push for young minds to enter such environments. Simply put, I think they want there to be a burgeoning class of young, educated, inexperienced, and motivated people with a conceited sense of self. It fits in well with the whole Marxist dream.

And no, I'm not entirely bitter (a bit angry, but I'm not saying I was outright wronged): I don't fit the generational trend. I was home-schooled for much of my life; I've found tradition by looking back several generations (I'm 25, married, and have 2 children); and I've learned to not only think for myself but to think creatively and solve problems. But I know I'm the exception, not only because I'm aware of the fact that I am particularly bright, but also because I can see that most people who are approximately my age - and upwards of 35-40 in urban areas - are still children, failing to take responsibility for their actions and living for the moment.

Caimlas

  • New Member
  • Posts: 18
    • BoiledFrog.US Forums
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2008, 02:51:11 PM »
"Doing things with dad" is a pretty new idea itself.  Men my father's age, if you talk to them, will mostly tell you about their father being at work in the mines/factory/farm for long gruelling shifts.  When dad got home, he was tired.  He ate and rested for the next shift.  Those were absolutely the glory days of children being seen and not heard.  Do stuff with the kids?  Yeah, right.  When working class men had any leisure time to "do stuff" they did it with their buddies.  Typically, it was not family-friendly activity.

Don't romanticize the past into something it wasn't.  That article is stuff and nonsense.


I don't know when this was you speak of, but I'm guessing it was during the industrial or post-industrial age, which was the rotten crotch from which the hippy generation dropped (and no, I'm not humiliating any person specifically here, just a generalization). There were some certain inadequacies with those generations, as it pertains to raising sons properly. Prior to that - and the great depression - there was an ethos which had not yet been corrupted by modernization, government, and the wanting of excess which extreme poverty and need (the great depression) brings on.

In that day and age, men would go out and work in the fields, farms, and shops. They would see their sons (and daughters - the importance of a righteous father for growing women can not be neglected mention) daily, and family was the center of importance. When their children reached a level of maturity which allowed them to perform chores, they did; and often, those children would work alongside their mothers and fathers, learning first-hand the qualities of a father and a man which should be emulated. It took several generation for this ethic and way of life to be completely (or at least, mostly) drawn out of our society, but it has been drawn out.

There are still some people who live by this ethic, when they're able. They work from home, or they work on the ranch, and they try and provide some sort of guidance to their children; having leisure time to do so isn't even remotely what it's about. It's about showing a concern and a focus on your family; part of that is working hard to put meat on the table, but another part is being involved when time allows, and guiding them to adulthood - manhood - when there is a moments' respite.

All the time spent with your children in the world won't make a bit of difference if you never impart wisdom to them. Will they remember playing Xbox with you, camping, or "doing things" or will they remember the things they've taught you about being a man (or woman), like: how to behave in polite company; how to treat the opposite sex; how to treat others, regardless of how they treat you; and the general effort and manner with which to conduct one's self.

Lee

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,181
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2008, 03:44:25 PM »
Quote
To be sure, the definition of manhood is culture-bound and has been talked about since time immemorial. The first-century Roman teacher Quintillian warned against spoiling boys. "If the child crawls on purple," the tutor wrote, referencing the imperial color, "what will he not desire when he comes to manhood?"

So this question has been around for a while? LOL
Now, as then, I'm sure it depends on the parents and how a kid is raised. 
In the hood, we see a lot of violent boy/men who substitute violence, and other vices, for character and perseverance.   Unfortunately, that culture also invaded the burbs and small towns to a degree.  Too much spare time seems to be the culprit to me.       

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2008, 04:22:25 PM »
screw it.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2008, 06:02:04 PM »
Quote
I don't know when this was you speak of, but I'm guessing it was during the industrial or post-industrial age, which was the rotten crotch from which the hippy generation dropped (and no, I'm not humiliating any person specifically here, just a generalization). There were some certain inadequacies with those generations, as it pertains to raising sons properly. Prior to that - and the great depression - there was an ethos which had not yet been corrupted by modernization, government, and the wanting of excess which extreme poverty and need (the great depression) brings on.

Yeah, well the 'hippy generation' left you a prosperous world, where you know neither fear nor want.

Strings

  • Guest
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2008, 06:50:24 PM »
Hey Jamis, I know a couple ladies that would REALLY like to "discuss" your change to Tecumseh's statement. Might I suggest body armour?

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2008, 07:15:10 PM »
Quote
I can see that most people who are approximately my age - and upwards of 35-40 in urban areas - are still children, failing to take responsibility for their actions and living for the moment.

You say that like it's a bad thing.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2008, 03:21:29 AM »
Art, I had to take one of those classes. Between 40hrs/ wk and 15 credit hrs, I get maybe an hr a day with my daughter. Before that I was working 2 full time jobs, one to pay the sitter the other to put a roof over our heads and food in our bellies. If companies salaries had kept up with inflation we wouldn't be in this recession. Instead of treating employees better things just got better at the top.We have become so accustomed to take the meager scraps we have been given, that we have deprived ourselves of the right to be paid an honest wage.

The only problem with trickle-down economics is when the top doesn't let it trickle down.....

....human beings have morals......corporations do not.......

Bullshit. 
Wife and I did pretty good last year.  And we're already doing better this year.
You wanna know how we spend our money?
Private preschool. 
Housekeeper
lawn service
3 office staff.
So, by our hard labor in building a successful business, we're employing 3 people directly.  And we're pumping money into 3 other businesses.  Not to mention the amount of money we spend in the economy for things like office supplies.  If we werent running a business, none of that would happen.
I challenge you to employee three people.  Our payroll liability for this year is going to be around 100k. 


Your example is the way it's supposed to work....the way Reagan meant it to work. The problem today is that the corporate top is taking the tax breaks and profits and investing them off-shore or into areas that don't benefit the national economy. As a result, we're losing our manufacturing base, our skilled production workers, and our thriving middle class.

Trickle-down is supposed to benefit American workers.....not Chinese slave labor or illegal aliens.....
  That is the inherent nature of capitalism though, and it is completely American to benefit Chinese and Undocumented workers because they are in affect working for the economy by working for less money.

However, if you read the history of the early US, you'll see that international trade was regulated heavily by the government to protect national and economic security. No trade agreement was approved unless the US got the greatest benefit. Kinda like China dictates trade policy to us.....

We need to get back to that kind of trade policy.....before we become the slave market....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Joe Demko

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 385
  • Marko Kloos was right about you.
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2008, 04:21:29 AM »
Quote
"Doing things with dad" described a typical boyhood, prior to the Industrial Revolution. 


In that context, doing things with dad meant laboring alongside dad.
That's right... I'm a Jackbooted Thug AND a Juvenile Indoctrination Technician.  Deal with it.

Joe Demko

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 385
  • Marko Kloos was right about you.
Re: Are we a nation of child-men?
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2008, 04:25:28 AM »
Quote
I don't know when this was you speak of, but I'm guessing it was during the industrial or post-industrial age, which was the rotten crotch from which the hippy generation dropped (and no, I'm not humiliating any person specifically here, just a generalization). There were some certain inadequacies with those generations, as it pertains to raising sons properly. Prior to that - and the great depression - there was an ethos which had not yet been corrupted by modernization, government, and the wanting of excess which extreme poverty and need (the great depression) brings on.

My dad was born in 1938.  He was about as far from a hippie as it is possible to be.  His father, born 1914, had a parallel experience with regards to dad's place in things.  The only difference was that my grandfather left school at 12 to go to work in the mines whereas my dad completed high school.  Their experiences were far from unique.
That's right... I'm a Jackbooted Thug AND a Juvenile Indoctrination Technician.  Deal with it.