Author Topic: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.  (Read 8181 times)

Desertdog

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What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« on: February 04, 2008, 09:32:39 AM »
After thinking about about internet voting, it is my opinion it is time to figure out a way to make it fool proof.

Now, I, and my wife, are voting by absentee ballot but I think it would be nice to vote on line if it can be made safe from fraud.


Werewolf

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2008, 10:02:33 AM »
After thinking about about internet voting, it is my opinion it is time to figure out a way to make it fool proof.

Now, I, and my wife, are voting by absentee ballot but I think it would be nice to vote on line if it can be made safe from fraud.


Big IF...

Hackers are smart enough to crack just about anything. Put the power of a political party behind them and manipulating online voting would become childs play.

Online voting - not gonna happen - at least not a system that's honest anyway.
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GigaBuist

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2008, 10:04:18 AM »
You wouldn't be able to audit the results unless you remove all anonymity from the process.  Not only would you need to be able to look up your own vote but also the ability to look up other's votes to make sure that the system isn't just kicking back the right data only on the one datapoint that they can be sure you know.

Presuming we wanted to go that route:  There's no ability for a recount.  Paper ballots can be watched.  Electronic ballots can't even be seen.  We'd have to run the whole election over and over again until everybody was happy with the results.

Ick.

Paper and optical scans are fine.

K Frame

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2008, 11:15:01 AM »
Voting, by its very nature in this country, has been abused and coopted, and that's when people actually have to show up to participate in the process.

Remove those restrictions, allow it to be done over an exceptionally porous and easily compromised infrastructure, remove the last lingering vestiges of tangible proof (electronic systems are already well on the way towards that) and make it so that no one ever has to see the voter's face again...

Yeah, that's a REALLY great recipe for the future of the United States as a participatory republic...
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Tecumseh

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2008, 11:17:38 AM »
You would see massive disenfranchisement.  Do we need to look at Bush's first election to see that these things happen.  Not to mention the current happenings in New Hampshire, Louisiana, and other places where the parties have tried to keep certain people from receiving votes. 

wooderson

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2008, 11:24:08 AM »
In an ideal world where I trust all political parties, the state itself and whichever contractor is hired to design the software - sure, Internet voting sounds grand.
But since I trust none of the above, I don't even like electronic voting machines...
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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2008, 12:50:11 PM »
Not everyone has Internet connection and probably never will.

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2008, 04:10:02 PM »
I do not support measures to make it easier for couch potatoes to vote.
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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2008, 05:02:06 PM »
I do not support measures to make it easier for couch potatoes to vote.

That's the smartest thing said regarding internet voting I've heard all day...
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Fly320s

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2008, 05:03:24 PM »
No such thing as fool proof.

I like the mid-east version: dip the finger in ink to show who voted.  Hard to get around that.
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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2008, 05:12:31 PM »
Quote
it is my opinion it is time to figure out a way to make it fool proof

Just when you make something fool-proof along come better fools.
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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2008, 05:17:16 PM »
I do not support measures to make it easier for couch potatoes to vote.

That's the smartest thing said regarding internet voting I've heard all day...

Yeah you beat me to it.  It's bad enough that most Americans (that I know, anyway) think that taking thirty minutes out of one day every four years to get out and vote fulfills their civic duty.  I at least want them to get off their fat asses and do it.

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2008, 05:17:32 PM »
I do not support measures to make it easier for couch potatoes to vote.

I agree. While I belive every citizen is entitled to vote, I secretly only want those to vote that actually want to vote. Those that would only vote if it were online are the same one that look forward to American Idol every week.
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Tecumseh

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2008, 06:05:04 PM »
Do you think it should be a national holiday to vote?  I for one do as it prevents some people from voting and is inconvenient for many.  I hate government holidays as much as the next guy but I think we can make Christmas and regular days and make voting on the election day a real holiday.  Thoughts?

SomeKid

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2008, 06:17:41 PM »
Do you think it should be a national holiday to vote?  I for one do as it prevents some people from voting and is inconvenient for many.  I hate government holidays as much as the next guy but I think we can make Christmas and regular days and make voting on the election day a real holiday.  Thoughts?

If it is too cumbersome to vote under the current process, then you are demanding too much.

Here in Tennessee, we have two weeks of early voting. Thats 7 days a week. At locations scattered all around. Not to mention absentee ballots. Then there is election day, with poling places every ten miles (or less, literally).

Anybody who cannot be bothered to vote under this system does not deserve any additional special accommodation to vote. Period.

The other reason, is that it will mean one more excuse for gov people to do less work, and collect more money.

Tecumseh

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2008, 06:24:45 PM »
That is true, however often the early voting leaves something to be desired.  I seem to remember many absentee ballots being thrown out when Bush hijacked the presidency in 2000.  Not to mention some of the voter fraud allegations in Lousiana, New Hampshire, and other states.  People were told their votes were not going to be counted. 

Waitone

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2008, 02:22:14 AM »
Never will fraud be eliminated.  The best we can hope is to make it more difficult to implement and easier to identify.

Therefore my answer to the question is simple.  Everyone gets up off the couch and goes to the polling place.  There the voter is given a black sharpie and a ballot suitable for scanning.  The vote is made and the ballot is placed into a clear, duct tape sealed container.  Containers are collected by state troopers where they are transported to a processing location along with representatives of parties.  They are then counted and the results issued to the media.  See, not really complicated.

What is complicated will be screwing up the guts to tell the braying jackasses in the media to shut up and sit down.  What is even more complicated is explaining to said jackasses that the state in question intends on having honest elections in as far as it is possible.  And most complicated of all is explaining again to said jackasses that their job is to report the news not shape events.

There!  That concludes my flight of fancy.
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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2008, 02:31:22 AM »
You would see massive disenfranchisement.  Do we need to look at Bush's first election to see that these things happen.  Not to mention the current happenings in New Hampshire, Louisiana, and other places where the parties have tried to keep certain people from receiving votes. 

How on baby jesus's green earth is making someone have ID to prove who they are preventing them from voting?


Oh, and as for the national holiday....

I used to work shiftwork.  I came off a graveyard shift and voted in the last presidential election....of course maybe that's why I voted Libertarian.....
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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2008, 02:31:44 AM »
"Do we need to look at Bush's first election to see that these things happen."

 rolleyes
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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2008, 03:37:24 AM »
Just when you make something fool-proof along come better fools.

Part of the problem is that voting is 'important' enough to also have many smart people working on getting around the system.  With a properly designed system, the worst a fool can do is vote for somebody he or she didn't want to, or spoil their ballot, ending up voting for nobody.

I've had people get upset with me about it before - but I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing.  I'm not talking about obfusticated ballots here, I'm talking about the 'fill in the bubble' type scannotron sheets I've been issued since elementary for various standardized tests.  It's a big sheet of paper - with stuff like:

President of the United States:
O Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton
O John McCain, Mike Huckabee

In addition, the sheet has instructions:  Fill out the bubble completely, don't mark elsewhere, etc...  You're told to fill out the bubble when you get your ballot.  Even my grandmother has taken standardized tests.

Last time I voted, I noticed that they had one of the blowup readers for people hard of vision, and poll assistants to handle any other handicaps such as blindness.  Heck, I think they might of even had a reader system for that.

For equal opportunity, ballot readers that allow somebody without vision to vote isn't a bad idea.  Touch screens?  Touch screens by default are very UNFRIENDLY to the visually disabled. 

Personally, I think that citizens should be able to speak and read english, so I wouldn't list multiple language ballots as a requirement.  If California wants them, California can have them.  At least the electoral college thing limits the damage any one state can do if they mess stuff up.  If you don't read/speak english very well, how hard is it to remember or even write down the translations to a few words like 'President', 'Governor', 'Mayor', 'Judge', and 'Dog Catcher'?.

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2008, 06:49:54 AM »
When you have what in practice amounts to roomfulls of stacked one hundred dollar bills available to pay anyone "what it takes" to get some sets of numbers to be in "such and such an order" for presentation - with no permanent detailed paper trail down to the local level - there is no way to make it fool proof.

Electronic voting machines have already been proven to be easily hacked and manipulated. It is the end of our political process if it is allowed to continue.

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MechAg94

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2008, 12:42:18 PM »
I agree with much of the above.  I like ballots that are manually filled out.  That way, representatives of the parties can sample the vote later to verify the numbers. 

I don't like making it easy to vote.  I think you should have to get to the voting booth and do it.  No point making it easier.

I would also not make it easy to register to vote.  These days they allow anyone to get a bunch of people to fill out voter cards and turn in a big stack of them.  IMO, that is likely the biggest source of fraud out there.  Force people to go to the govt office to turn in the voter card personally showing ID.  Make them show ID again when they vote.  If you can't figure out how to show ID of some sort, tough.
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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2008, 05:21:26 PM »
I do not support measures to make it easier for couch potatoes to vote.

That's the smartest thing said regarding internet voting I've heard all day...

Yeah you beat me to it.  It's bad enough that most Americans (that I know, anyway) think that taking thirty minutes out of one day every four years to get out and vote fulfills their civic duty.  I at least want them to get off their fat asses and do it.

In fact, they should hide the polling places and print clues to how to find it in the local paper. If you're smart enough to find the place, you're smart enough to vote.....

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2008, 05:32:22 PM »
I think it's the best hope for Ron Paul in 2008.  grin
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Tecumseh

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Re: What is your opinion on internet voting. Not a poll.
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2008, 06:00:53 PM »
You would see massive disenfranchisement.  Do we need to look at Bush's first election to see that these things happen.  Not to mention the current happenings in New Hampshire, Louisiana, and other places where the parties have tried to keep certain people from receiving votes. 

How on baby jesus's green earth is making someone have ID to prove who they are preventing them from voting?


Oh, and as for the national holiday....

I used to work shiftwork.  I came off a graveyard shift and voted in the last presidential election....of course maybe that's why I voted Libertarian.....
 angel
  Well the democracy that is working in Iraq does not require ID.  They just want you to dip your finger in red ink.  Are you sayign the democracy that we brought to them does not work?  Couldn't we do that?  Just ask for people to have fingers?  If they don't then how about a red mark on their forehead or their chest or some visible part of the body?  If you have no head, chances are you will not be voting, right?