Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...

[Tecumseh]

Does anyone have any thoughts they would like to share.  As well as backing them up with facts.  I am curious as to others.  Why John Kerry's honorable service is laughed at while John McCains heroic service is held in such high regard by many?

Thoughts.  Thanks.

[Scout26]

Sure, just ask to see Kerry's DD214 (Discharge Certificate) vs. McCain's.

I'm not a McCain supporter, but I do have respect for what he went through as a POW vs. what Kerry did in Viet-Nam.
 

[brer]

Pretty simple really, Kerry was out patrioted by aa man who was in the reserves during vietnam and didnt even to bother to show up to do that.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i think kerrys actions while still a reservist after he took the three scratches your out clause hurt him forever. as does his "performance" before congress. add that to the mystry medals being tossed and the general slime that oozes from him hes earned for ever a place beside hanoi jane on the wall of shame.   how many guys get a place in the enemy war museum

[Teknoid]

i think kerrys actions while still a reservist after he took the three scratches your out clause hurt him forever. as does his "performance" before congress. add that to the mystry medals being tossed and the general slime that oozes from him hes earned for ever a place beside hanoi jane on the wall of shame.   how many guys get a place in the enemy war museum

+1 Regardless of what he did in Nam, what he did after returning home was enough to label him a liar and traitor, to me.

[HankB]

The fact that so many decorated Vietnam Swift Boat combat vets - including, IIRC, men with FAR more decorations than Kerry (Wasn't there a MOH winner in there?) came forward to denounce Kerry's record has a lot of weight; they didn't just snipe from afar or post anonymously on blogs, they stepped into the light, identified themselves, and denounced Kerry.

Either Kerry is a liar - or all of them, every single one, is.

Considering the parts of Kerry's past that we can easily verify . . . the Swift Boaters were, and remain, FAR more credible.

As for McCain . . . I'm NO fan of his, but unless a whole slew of other vets come forth to denounce him as Jane Fonda's main squeeze in Vietnam or something, his service record isn't a target for attack.

[Perd Hapley]

  Why John Kerry's honorable service is laughed at while John McCains heroic service is held in such high regard by many? 

The answer is really very simple.  John Kerry's service has come under very serious, and very public, criticism from those who appear to be credible witnesses.  Even if the witnesses are mistaken or lying, there's your answer.  McCain's service has not been questioned, or if it has, no one has heard about it. 

[Bigjake]

  Why John Kerry's honorable service is laughed at while John McCain's heroic service is held in such high regard by many? 

You answered your own question somewhat.  Kerry's record is only honorable on paper, McCain's is indisputable.

Kerry (who served in Vietnam, BTW) tried to use his record as a resume enhancer, and he was either audacious enough to think that no one would scrutinize it, or deluded to the point he thought it was something to beat his chest over.

McCain's record, OTOH, speaks for itself.

Added, "Unfit for Command" is an interesting read.

[brer]

Mccain's record is indusputable. He has earned his reputation.

Thing is, Kerry also had an honorable record.  He was wounded in action three times in vietnam.  The swift boaters are basically saying collectively that a man that was wounded in combat three times is less worthy than a man who never saw vietnam because he got a reserve appointment through privelage and did'nt even manage to fufill the duties assigned to him light as they were.

I really do not need to see the swift boaters credentials, their own words have already told me all that I need to know about them. They were organized as a political attack machine and have lost all credibility because of that.

[Perd Hapley]

Kerry also had an honorable record.  He was wounded in action three times in vietnam.  The swift boaters are basically saying collectively that a man that was wounded in combat three times is less worthy than a man who never saw vietnam because he got a reserve appointment through privelage and did'nt even manage to fufill the duties assigned to him light as they were. 

No, that's not true. 

[brer]

Yes it is

[Perd Hapley]

No it's not.   

[brer]

Yes it is

[Tecumseh]

Can anyone prove it?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Mccain's record is indusputable. He has earned his reputation.

Thing is, Kerry also had an honorable record.  He was wounded in action three times in vietnam.  The swift boaters are basically saying collectively that a man that was wounded in combat three times is less worthy than a man who never saw vietnam because he got a reserve appointment through privelage and did'nt even manage to fufill the duties assigned to him light as they were.

I really do not need to see the swift boaters credentials, their own words have already told me all that I need to know about them. They were organized as a political attack machine and have lost all credibility because of that.

kerrys goy a place of honor in the enemys war museum. he played at a negotiation with the enemy while still a reservist.
its no accident they have his picture next to jane fondas at the vfw
  honest john kerry chose to make his "hero" status a part of his campaign. that made it and him fair game. that hes was shown to be a slimeball is no ones fault but his own.maybe he should given it more thought that xmas eve on the river in laos.... oh wait that was all bs too.  but it sure made a great sound bite "burned into his memory"

[brer]

Kerry's stance on the war was as a young blooded veteran. He was there, got the Tshirt, got the scars too.

Remind me again where the Shrubs vietnam scars are?

Kerry demonstrated against the war, threw his medals away etc etc.

Guess what. He earned the right to do that.  He left a lot more blood laying in the dirt than the shrub ever did.

What did we as a nation gain off of vietnam that would compensate us for the soldiers that died there?

I would say I hate to say it, but I dont.  IMHO the swift boaters were bought off to a man in an attempt to make the only honorable war veteran in the race less appetizing than a person that not only ducked out of vietnam, but out of a much safer reserve post.

[Bigjake]

It's funny you stand by those facts when your champion won't even sign the release forms to make his record public...

[Dannyboy]

IMHO the swift boaters were bought off to a man...

So, what you're saying, is that they ALL lied?  If that were the case, then why hasn't Jawn Carey allowed his records to be released?  Seems to me that that would clear up everything.  Or, even better, why hasn't the esteemed junior Senator from Massachusetts sued anyone for libel/slander/defamation?  Do you think it's because he's above that?  Or, maybe, just maybe, everything they said was true.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Can anyone prove it?

What constitutes proof?

All we really have today are numerous eyewitness accounts of Kerry's service, the vast majority are highly unfavorable to Kerry.  Leftists like to claim that the swiftboat vets were all lying, that it was all some sort of elaborate conspiracy.  I think most sane people would agree that there was no conspiracy, that those who served with Kerry all remember the events happened as they were as retold in Unfit for Command, more or less.

Then there's Kerry's well documented shameful behavior after he returned from Vietnam.  Even if Kerry's service had been beyond reproach, his subsequent behavior showed that he held nothing but contempt for the military and those who served in it.  It well and truly looked like he wanted his country to lose the Vietnam war. just as it looked/looks like he wants his country to lose the current war in Iraq. 

The disreputable behavior the swiftboat vets attributed to Kerry matched the character of the man we all saw after the war.  Maybe you could argue that none of this amounted to proof.  It doesn't matter.  Proof or not, the evidence was strong enough to convince voters that Kerry was not the honorable military man he pretended to be during his Presidential campaign.

To date, there hasn't been any serious, credible dispute of McCain's war record.  Also, McCain has consistently supported the troops, the military, and the  war efforts undertaken by our country since his release from captivity.  It  would be darned hard to convince the public that McCain's war record was a hoax.  It wouldn't fit with what we've all observed for ourselves about McCain's actions, beliefs, and attitudes towards the military. 

[brer]

Gee why havent the shrubs records been released. 

If the swift boaters had made their comments before Kerry tried for election, I might have believed them.  But the way they have been presented is symptomatic of having been bought off.  Yes, I would challenge the honor of every last one of them but I think they sold their honor to the lowest bidder.

Again we get down to a man that left his blood in vietnam three seperate times versus a man that never saw the place in combat, got an appointment in the reserves on political pressure and never bothered to even fulfill that.

[drewtam]

Honestly read the original post. No one brought up Pres. Bush but you Brer. No one claimed Pres Bush to be a war hero or even a veteran. The comparison is between McCain and Kerry; two people who's Vietnam history is held forth as political resume.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Kerry's stance on the war was as a young blooded veteran. He was there, got the Tshirt, got the scars too.

Remind me again where the Shrubs vietnam scars are?

Kerry demonstrated against the war, threw his medals away etc etc.

Guess what. He earned the right to do that.  He left a lot more blood laying in the dirt than the shrub ever did.

What did we as a nation gain off of vietnam that would compensate us for the soldiers that died there?

I would say I hate to say it, but I dont.  IMHO the swift boaters were bought off to a man in an attempt to make the only honorable war veteran in the race less appetizing than a person that not only ducked out of vietnam, but out of a much safer reserve post.

did kerry really throw his medals ?  hes got em on displayin his office now  more honest john the liar at work

and brer? take a look at what flying jets is like sometime. not a desk pushers spot and i've never heard of a jet jockey who took his own pr footage in combat.

as to scars which of honest johns wounds left a scar?  my 6 year olds got a better scar from riding her 4 wheeler

[De Selby]

The Swift boat fiasco proved that many of the people Kerry served with not only didn't respect his service, they were outraged by his "I went to Vietnam so I'm a good president" election platform.

It was an incredibly dumb political move.  You can't go to Vietnam, earn a reputation as a show-boater who calls himself "the Next JFK from Massachusetts" and shoots dorky home videos about his battles, come back to throw your medals in the dirt and protest....and on top of it, run for president claiming that your military experience gives you an edge in leadership. 

I think he honestly believed that the media would just not dig up all his statements post-Vietnam, and that he'd be able to sell himself as a bona fide commando leader by using a small number of former servicemen whose statements were carefully guarded by the Kerry campaign.  His whole self-created image on this topic made him look like a phoney and a blow-hard, just like his hunting trips in camo.

Kerry 2004 goes down as one of the worst campaign years ever by any political side-the shear foolishness of the strategy was breathtaking. 

[brer]

Then show me shrubs scars from vietnam, you wont find them because he was not there.

I really do not care if he threw his medals or not.  Fundamental concept. He earned em, he can throw em if he wants to. He did spend time in vietnam unlike shrub, he earned the right to speak against the war.  Unlike shrub who likes warmongering without ever having been in a war.

I lost a lot of my original issue medals in various moves. Did I lose the right to those medals? I think not. I can order replacements.  I still have the right to wear what I earned. Are you calling me a liar for displaying the medals my DD214 says that I earned?

Show me a combat mission shrub flew. any evidence of one. 

Hate to say it but Kerry got outpatrioted by a wannabe and a political attack machine.

He was there, shrub was not. 

The worst part of it is that most of you still believe that bush has a better war record than Kerry.  Just go Baaah real loudly so everyone can tell who you are

[De Selby]

brer, I'm no fan of Bush or the machine that elected him, but I think the facts are more than clear on what kind of guy Kery was.

-He ran as the "intellectual" candidate, when it turned out his grades from Yale were actually worse than George Bush's.

-He ran as the battle hardened candidate, when there were hours of tapes showing him talking about what a waste of time Vietnam was, how he witnessed atrocities personally, and how he thought all his awards and accolades for fighting in an immoral war were worthless.  Yet the awards suddenly became worthwhile when he decided he could be elected as "the commando" president.

It has nothing to do with George Bush-John Kerry did himself in during 2004 with what should have been an easy campaign (it's not like bush was popular then.)  He failed to win because the public rightly recognized him for a grandstander and a disingenuous politician.  The long list of outraged former co-servicemen was icing on the cake; his own advertisements and speeches were enough to make him unelectable as it was.