Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...

[grislyatoms]

  Why John Kerry's honorable service is laughed at while John McCain's heroic service is held in such high regard by many? 

Kerry (who served in Vietnam, BTW)

Thanks for the Pepsi up my nose and all down my shirt...

[brer]

Grades,, good one.  I am one of the alternative education type.  I hear garbled in one ear.  In classroom instruction I do relatively poorly.  In straight eduction from a tech manual I can beat most engineers.

So what you are saying is that the shrub won because he was deemed intelectually the better of Kerry?

Hmm, While I am not 'battle hardened' I am a war veteran that thinks this war is a losing proposition.  I also speak out against it.

Kerry never ran as the commando president. He did run as a man with a better record than the shrub.

Kerry failed to win because a political attack machine made a man that had actively dodged  duty in vietnam appear to be a better candidate than a three time wounded war veteran.  Just say baaah. You believed it.

[antsi]

Brer, it seems like you are just trying to pick a fight here. Your "you believed it" and "baaah" are insulting and add nothing of substance to the discussion.

Are you really looking for a discussion here, or do you just want to jump in to a controversial topic and insult anyone who disagrees with you?

Your basic position seems to be that anyone who served in Vietnam is unassailable. Well, the Swift Boat Vets served in Vietnam too and they dispute some of Kerry's claims about his service. If Kerry earned the right to speak out, so did they. Maybe you're right and they are all lying, and Kerry is the only one telling the truth.

In any situation where you have people contradicting each other, and no independent way of verifying the facts directly, you are basically taking one person's word against another's. There is no way to be absolutely sure in such cases. However, there are some ways you can get clues as to who might be telling the truth, such as looking at each side's possible motivations to lie, and how many witnesses are corroborating the same story versus the one guy contradicting them. Several people on this thread have pointed out these kind of factors which seem to favor the Swift Boat Vets. You have replied only with insults, and misdirection (like accusing people of defending Bush or saying his war record is superior, which nobody has done).

Your method of choosing whom to believe is clear. If they are a Democrat (Kerry), you believe them. If they are not (SBVets, McCain, Bush), you insult them. So, who exactly is being the sheep here?

As for the original question, if a group of Vietnam vets were to step up and contradict what McCain says about his war record, I would certainly listen to that. If their accusations were credible, I would certainly weigh that in judging McCain's character.

[wooderson]

Why John Kerry's honorable service is laughed at while John McCains heroic service is held in such high regard by many?

I think the answer here is simple: John Kerry is a Democrat. In the Atwater/Rove-era, ends justify means for the political machine of the American right.

Was it tactically stupid for Kerry to present himself as a war hero? Absolutely.
Did it make me respect him less as a 'man of honor'? Well, not really, I didn't respect him in the first place.
Why that should render his service worthy of ridicule, particularly given his opposition? God only knows.

[wooderson]

And it's also an issue of gullibility. Some people are so willing to believe the worst in their political opponents, they'll trust anything their side says without question.

We see it in this thread - claims that Kerry's post-service opposition got him a spot in the Vietnamese war museum and so on. Except that's long since been shown untrue - Kerry has a photo in the Vietnamese museum... along with Bob McNamara and other individuals who went to Vietnam as relations warmed in the '90s. It has bugger-all to do with the war itself, much less Kerry's activism.

[brer]

No antsi.

The problem is that everyone is is jumping on the side of the swift boat veterans.  A group which has been shown in the past to be likely not swift, nor boat soldiers nor veterans as an absolute truth.

My basic position is that a man that avoided duty in vietnam was given more credence than a man that was wounded three times there. This is what is called a political attack machine.

The baaah is meant to be insulting.  If you believed the swift boat veterans without question then you are a sheep.  If you do not like being a sheep, then look up some time. Dont defend being a sheep.

Kerry's military record has been documented.  Shrubs was not. I am not saying that all the swift boat veterans were lying, just the ones who were paid off were.

The swift boat veterans would have been believable if they had made their comments at the time of the facts.  Making their first comments three decades later makes them look like hookers crying rape after they did not get paid.  This is singularly what makes them untrustworthy.  The man's record stood without question for close to thirty years until the republican attack machine started finding anyone that would claim to have served in the same unit, yet those same persons never came forwards on their own.

If anyone ever stepped up and challenged McCains record, I would listen to them, but not likely believe them just because the RNC said they were credible.  McCain has an impressive record of service that few can match.  Anyone gainsaying him should have stepped up a very long time ago. 

You are declaiming Kerry's war record without ever defending the shrub's.

BTW, lifelong republican until shrub. Quite likely last time I will vote republican.  Can you say fed up with deception?

[Dannyboy]

BTW, lifelong republican until shrub. Quite likely last time I will vote republican.  Can you say fed up with deception?

Blah, blah, blah.  Bush bad.  Repugs bad.  Are you Riley's brother or something?  Are we gonna hear about the death of the middle class next?

The reason nobody is defending Bush's war record, other than the fact that he doesn't have one, is that nobody was talking about him except you.  He is totally irrelevant to the conversation.  You just haven't been able to wrap your head around that yet.

[wooderson]

The Swift Boat Veterans were Bush operatives (with some laughable plausible deniability in place), having never attacked Kerry during the primaries or the preceding 30 years of his political life. They existed only a functioning arm of the Bush campaign. That makes Bush's record eminently relevant as a point of comparison, and to illustrate the dubious ethics of those involved.

[antsi]

Brer

I never said I believed the SBvets. As a basic rule, I start off by disbelieving anything said by anyone involved in politics. Only if what they said is corroborated by multiple independent sources to I even begin to admit the possibility that they might be telling the truth.

Coming out with the story years later does tend to detract from believability. However there are also circumstantial factors against Kerry, too. I don't think you can say you definitively know which side is lying here. Most likely, Kerry has exaggerated his service AND the SBvets have exaggerated their counterclaims. I seriously doubt either side is telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

As to "meant to be insulting" all I can say is "why?" What is the point of anonymously insulting people on the internet?

Moreover, you're insulting people based on things they aren't even saying. Nobody on here has defended Bush's war record, or said they voted for him based on a judgment that his war record was superior to Kerry's, or even that they voted for him at all.

I voted against Kerry because he's a gun-grabbing socialist. He has been a total 100% supporter of every anti gun legislation that crossed his desk. His war record, good or bad, ture or untrue, had nothing to do with my vote.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

kerrys bonafides as a liar are well established. see his claims aout being in laos for example. or his claims before congress about having witnesses atrocities personally both of which hes recanted on.. lets also examine his role in helping normalize relations with vietnam and his cousins imediate multimillion dollar deal marketing their real estate internationally

[Scout26]

Brer,

A couple of points:

1.  You keep comparing Kerry's military service to Bush's.  The OP ask about McCain v Kerry, not Bush v Kerry.  So your arguments are non-starters.  Oh, while you may not like the man, Ad Hominen attacks are very low road (Shrub) and not even remotely funny.  As much as I disagreed with Clinton's policies I referred to him as President Clinton while he was in office, not Slick Willie or any of the many nicknames he earned/was given while in office.

2.  Pres. Bush and John McCain have released all their service records, otherwise how would we know about Bush's time in Alabama National Guard.   Kerry refuses and has fought tooth and nailed to prevent his being released.  So you tell me who has nothing to hide  ??

3.  I guy I worked for while in college, served in Illinois National Guard during Vietnam.  His dad used his clout and pulled in favors to get him in the Guard.  He only did four out the six years he was supposed to.   Where does he rate with you ??      

4.  Bush has better grades from Yale then Kerry, and a Harvard MBA.  Kerry got his MBA from where again ??  Oh, that's right he doesn't have one.

5.  And I tend to believe that what the swift boat veterans who were there with Kerry and then signed their names saying in essence "John Kerry" is lying carry much more wieght then Kerry's statements.

[wooderson]

see his claims aout being in laos for example. or his claims before congress about having witnesses atrocities personally both of which hes recanted on..

Do you have the direct quotes on his initial statements and later recantations on those?

[wooderson]

5.  And I tend to believe that what the swift boat veterans who were there with Kerry and then signed their names saying in essence "John Kerry" is lying carry much more wieght then Kerry's statements.

You realize that none of the individuals who were "there with Kerry" "signed their names," right?

[Bigjake]

  think the answer here is simple: John Kerry is a Democrat. In the Atwater/Rove-era, ends justify means for the political machine of the American right.

Dude, give it up.  You've proven yourself a halfway rational intellectual in other threads, this one isn't a winner, why are you standing up for this grandstanding wannabe??  Rove didn't have to lift a finger, John F Kerry is his own worst enemy.  You don't have to be a political genius to defeat such an idiot.  to suggest that demeans Rove's political prowess, which you all rely on as a catch all for why Dem's loose.  Fistful can't be the scapegoat for everything...

[Bigjake]

nevermind

[Ben]

The original post asked about Kerry vs McCain. If you want to have a Kerry vs Bush debate Brer, start a new thread (that will remain open if it remains civil), don't derail this one.

[MechAg94]

My understanding was that the lead guy in the Swift Boats was a long time critic of John Kerry.  I was thinking there was mention of a debate between him and Kerry back in the 70's.  I have slept since then so pardon me if I don't remember a few details. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

see his claims aout being in laos for example. or his claims before congress about having witnesses atrocities personally both of which hes recanted on..

Do you have the direct quotes on his initial statements and later recantations on those?

there is video of kerry tesuys actually saw the  atrocities.  testifying about the atrocities and his lil firefight in laos sound bite was in the congressional record   he later aknowledged guilding the lilly saying other guys saw the atrocities. sadly for him it seems the two guys he named were never in vietnam

and i was mistaken it was cambodia he lied about
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."

(Note: Kerry has since altered his claim to say he was in Cambodia in early 1969. This claim in unsubstantiated. The story changes by the day and unfolding.)

http://www.archive-news.net/Kerry/JK_timeline.html


I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml


and while i'm certai it will escape brer   we have on one hand kerry dodging to run home for 3 bandaids and some batine wounds.  and on the other we have mccain who was hurt severly in the ejection and tortured and who was given the option of going home as well as other preferential treatment and he turned it down . his principles lead him to stay in a pow camp as opposed to doing a "john kerry"

[Scout26]

You realize that none of the individuals who were "there with Kerry" "signed their names," right?

http://www.swiftvets.com/article.php?story=20040629220813790

Swift Veterans Letter to John Kerry   
 Author:   
 Dated:  Tuesday, May 04 2004 @ 10:00 PM PDT
 Viewed:  68722 times   
 Senator Kerry,
We write from our common heritage as veterans of duty aboard Swift Boats in the Vietnam War. Indeed, you should note that a substantial number of those men who served directly with you during your four month tour in Vietnam have signed this letter. (emphasis mine)

It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.

We believe you continue this conduct today, albeit by changing from an anti-war to a "war hero" status. You now seek to clad yourself in the very medals that you disdainfully threw away in the early years of your political career. In the process, we believe you continue a deception as to your own conduct through such tactics as the disclosure of only carefully screened portions of your military records. Both then and now, we have concluded that you have deceived the public, and in the process have betrayed honorable men, to further your personal political goals.

Your conduct is such as to raise substantive concerns as to your honesty and your ability to serve, as you currently seek, as Commander-in-Chief of the military services.

It is vital that the American public have as much information as possible about candidates for President of the United States. In various ways, you have rightly called upon President Bush to be fully accountable and to provide full disclosure. In the same spirit, now that you are the presumptive nominee of your Party, we believe it is incumbent upon you to make your total military record open to the American people.

Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records. Further, we call upon you to correct the misconceptions your campaign seeks to create as to your conduct while in Vietnam. Permit the American public the opportunity to assess your military performance upon the record, and not upon campaign rhetoric.

Senator Kerry, we were there. We know the truth. We have been silent long enough. The stakes are too great, not only for America in general but, most importantly, for those who have followed us into service in Iraq and Afghanistan. We call upon you to provide a full, accurate accounting of your conduct in Vietnam.

Respectfully,

Daniel Aguilar, OSC, USNR-R
Pat Alexander
Roy Alexander*
Kenneth J. Andrews, Lt.*
Arturo Arias, QM2, USN (Ret.)
Daniel V. Armstrong, BM2*
Douglas Armstrong, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Harry Ball, Cdr., USN (Ret.)
Ray Lewis Ballew*
Sonny Barber, USN (Ret.)
John Bare
Alexander Bass*
George "M." Bates*
Richard Beers*
Paul L. Bennett, Cdr., USN*
Edward J. Lord Mort Bergin, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Henry Buddy Berman, QM2*
Herb Blume, Lt.
Barry Bogart, EN2*
Bob Bolger Cdr., USN* (Ret.)
M.T. Boone*
Benny Booth
David Borden*
Carl Bowman
Vern Boyd*
David M. Bradley, LCdr.*
Robert Bradley, Lt. USNR - inactive
Robert Friar Tuck Brant, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Briggs*
Carlyle J. Brown, EN2*
Donald Brown, RD3
Kenneth "Buck" Buchholz, GMM3*
Michael C. Burton
Tom Burton
Joe Cahill, Jr., Lt.*
Jack L. Carlson, Lt., USNR*
James Carter
Billy Carwile, EN3*
Virgil Chambers, RD3
Jack Chenoweth, Capt., USNR, (Ret.)*
William Colgan, RD3*
Bill Collins*
Daniel K. Corbett, Lt., USNR*
James M. Corrigan, QM3*
Terry Cosstello, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Tom Costarino
Toi Dang, GM3
John H. Davis, Lt.*
William K. Daybert,Cdr.*
James Deal*
Richard Dodson, Capt., USN (Ret.)
John Dooley, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Dale Duffield, CWO USN (Ret.)*
Robert G. Elder, Lt.*
George M. Elliott, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Bill Eshelman
Claude Farmer, Cdr., USNR (Ret.)
Michael Fasold
William Ferris, Capt., USNR (Ret.)
Wallace Benjamin Foreman, QM1, USN (Ret.)*
William T. Ferris, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
James Foster, GMG1, USN (Ret.)
William E. Franke, Lt.jg*
Robert L. Franson, BMCS (SW)*
Alfred J. French, III, Capt., JAGC, USNR (Ret.)*
Paul F. Fulcomer, RD3*
Ray Fuller, GMG3*
Steve Fulton, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Mike Gann, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Steve Gardner*
Bill Garlow*
Les Garrett*
Tony Gisclair, BOSN2*
Robert Gnau, QM2*
Donald Goldberg*
Morton Golde, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Golden*
Gerald L. Good, Lt. USN*
Roy Graham
John C. Graves*
Charles E. Green, ENCM, USN (Ret.)*
Dennis L. Green, GMG*
H.C. Griffin, Jr., Lt. USNR*
I.B.S. (Boyd) Groves, Jr.*
Charles R. Grutzius, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
F.L. Skip "Mustang Sally" Gunther, Lt. USN*
Louis Hahn ETCM (SW) USN (Ret.)
Bill Halpin, Lt. USNR (Ret.)*
Don C. Hammer, Lt.*
Rock Harmon*
Keith C. Harris, RD2*
Stewart M. Harris, Lt., USN*
Stirlin Harris, BM2*
Gene Hart, RD3*
Bob Hastings*
Curt Hatler*
John Hecker, RD3*
Chuck Herman, RD3*
Raul Herrera*
Tom Herritage*
Grant "Skip" Hibbard*
Bill Hickey
Rocky Hildreth*
Gary Hite
Jim Hoffmann, RD3
Roy Hoffmann, Adm., USN (Ret.)*
William P. Holden, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Wayland Holloway, Lt. USNR*
Duane Holman, QM2
Robert Hooke, Lt.*
Bill Hoole
Andy Horne*
John Howell*
Warren Hudson*
Charles W. Hunt, EN3*
Robert Hunt*
Gail E. "Ike" Ikerd, Cdr. (Ret.)*
Bert Jeffries, QM3
Richard Jenkins
John Paul Jones, QM3*
Tom Jones*
Eddie Kajioka ENCS, USN (Ret.)*
John L. Kipp, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Thomas H. Klemash*
Kenneth Knipple, EN1*
Robert Koger, QM2*
Mike Kovanen, RD3*
Bob Kreyer, GMG2*
Jack K. Lane, GMG3*
William T. Langham*
William Lannom*
Alan Lapat
Joseph R. Lavoie, II CWO2 (BOSN), USN (Ret.)*
Louis Letson, LCdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jim Madden, RD3*
William S. Mann, Jr., Lt.jg*
Jim Marohn, GMG3*
Douglas Martin, Lt. USNR*
Tom Mason, Lt.*
Donald Matras, EN2 (Ret.)*
Thomas Mason, Lt.*
Louis Masterson*
Donald Matras, EN3
Richard McFarland, Lt. USNR*
Kenneth B. McGhee*
James McNeal, ENC*
Errol Meleander, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jack Merkley, Lt.*
James M. Miller*
John Miller, ENC (Ret.)
Martin Miller, ENC (Ret.)*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3*
Edward Morgan, Capt. USN*
Edgar (Ed) M. Morrill, Jr.*
Tom Morrill, EN3*
Wayne H. Moser*
Kurt Moss, Lt. J.G.*
Frank Mueller*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Ed Mundy*
Van Odell, GMG1
Richard Olsen, Lt.*
Richard O'Mara, RD2, USN
John O'Neill, Lt., USN, (Ret.)*
Albert Owens*
Tedd Peck, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Richard Pees, Lt., USNR
James Penkert, ENC
Thomas Petersik
Robert Phalen, GMG2*
Charles Plumley*
Joseph L. Ponder, GMG-2, USN (Ret.)*
Chuck Rabel*
Bob Reller
Steve Renfro, RD3, USN (Ret.)
Don Renshaw, EN2, USN PCF 93
Frank Rockwell
Bill Rogers, Lt.*
Patrick Sage GMG3*
Gary W. Sallee, BM2*
Burke Salsi, RD2
Joe Sandoval, GMG3*
Jimmy W. Sanford, RD3*
Robert Scattergood*
Jim Schneider, EN2*
Clair J. (Pete) Schrodt, Capt. USN (Ret.)*
Jack Shamley*
Patrick Sheedy, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Paul Shepherd, QM2*
Robert B. Shirley, Lt.jg*
William Shumadine*
Stanley G. Simonson, GMG2*
John Singleton, ENC
Darryl Skuce, GMG2*
John J. Skura*
Gerald H. Smith*
Bob Smith, GMG2
Gerald Smith
Roy Smith*
B. Tony Snesko BM2*
Mike Solhaug*
Jack Spratt, LCDR*
David R. Stefferud, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
James Steffes*
Fred E. Stith, USN (Ret.)*
Lawrence Stoneberg, Lt. USN (Ret.)*
Weymouth Symmes, RDM*
Tony Taylor
W.P. "Sonny" Taylor*
Dewey Thedford
James P. Thomas*
Eldon Thompson, Lt.jg*
Larry Thurlow, Lt.jg
Joseph Timmons, RD3, USN
Charles R. Tinstman, ENC*
Gary E. Townsend*
William F. Trainer*
Mark Tuft, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Michael Turley, BM2*
Chris J. Vedborg, RD3*
Jeffrey M. Wainscott, Lt.jg*
David Wallace*
Greg Ward, EN2*
Larry J. Waz Wasikowski, Cdr. U.S. Naval Reserve*
Pete Webster*
Steven Weekley, GMG, QM3*
George Wendell, En1, USN (Ret.)
Bruce Wentworth, Lt., USNR
George H. White, II*
R. Shelton White, Lt.*
Gary K. Whittington, EN3*
James D. Wiggins*
Tom Wilkins
Thomas A. Withey, Lt.*
Bernard Wolff*
Thomas W. Wright, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
John Wyatt, GMG*
John Yeoman, Lt.*

* = signed original letter, presented May 4, 2004


"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"

-- Steven Gardner

Mr. Gardner signed the letter.


 

[wooderson]

Dude, give it up.  You've proven yourself a halfway rational intellectual in other threads, this one isn't a winner, why are you standing up for this grandstanding wannabe??  Rove didn't have to lift a finger, John F Kerry is his own worst enemy.  You don't have to be a political genius to defeat such an idiot.  to suggest that demeans Rove's political prowess, which you all rely on as a catch all for why Dem's loose.  Fistful can't be the scapegoat for everything...

If I'm going to dislike someone or attack them, I want it to be for the right reasons. There are a million reasons John Kerry is a weasel, and I'm glad to join in calling him to ground for building a career on political expediency (from Vietnam to Iraq) - but the Swift Boat stuff is dishonest campaigning of the worst sort. (Made all the worse by the arguments that they were an 'independent' body.)

And I'm not blaming Rove in particular - though I don't doubt for a moment he wasn't in on those meetings (any more than Hillary's chief advisors weren't in on the decision to smear Obama a few weeks back with the Muslim stuff). Just that since Lee Atwater (Rove having taken Atwater's style to its furthest conclusion), the GOP machine has been particularly adept at this kind of slur campaigning.  

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_john_kerry2.htm
7. Kerry's cousin, C. Stewart Forbes, chief executive for Colliers International, assisted in brokering a $905 million deal to develop a deep-sea port at Vung Tau, Vietnam.

True. In 1993, under the direction of CEO C. Stewart Forbes (a relative of Kerry on his mother's side), Boston-based real estate giant Colliers International brokered just such a deal between an Asian subsidiary, Colliers Jardine, and the Vietnamese government to develop the port of Vung Tau.

[wooderson]

Scout, I think it's interesting that your argument in the first post is that you won't trust Kerry's own word about his whereabouts - but your argument in the second post is that you will trust the Swift Boaters' own word that the individuals who signed "served directly with [Kerry]."

It's really interesting because this isn't an issue up for opinions or disagreement. The facts of the matter are that no one who served with Kerry in the missions that the Swift Boaters chose to attack signed on. Only one individual who served with Kerry, period, signed on. (And even one Swift Boater who served on another boat during the engagement in which Kerry earned the Silver Star argued that Kerry did, in fact, earn that Silver Star.)

But you'll believe what you want to believe, I'm sure.

[wooderson]

Gardner was the only member of SBVT who actually served with Kerry... just not at any of the decorated missions. You left out that part, scout.

[wooderson]

and i was mistaken it was cambodia he lied about
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."

(Note: Kerry has since altered his claim to say he was in Cambodia in early 1969. This claim in unsubstantiated. The story changes by the day and unfolding.)

You're taking an anti-Kerry source as fact - do you have the specific recantation?

Kerry was based on the Mekong Delta in Dec '68-Jan '69 - which means that he may well have been in Cambodia, as operations were taking place across the border at that time.

This is his earliest quote on the matter:
"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."

The problem there, of course, is that Tricky Dick wasn't President. But that has nothing to do with his presence or lack thereof.

You're taking a lot of hearsay, and assuming that the spin being put on it is fact.

[Scout26]

"During Lt.(jg) Kerry's tour, he was under my command for two or three specific operations, before his rapid exit. Trust, loyalty and judgment are the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in 1971 in his grubby shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with his slanderous lines in the recent book portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their families.

Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'"

-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)

"I was in An Thoi from June of '68 to June of '69, covering the whole period that John Kerry was there. I operated in every river, in every canal, and every off-shore patrol area in the 4th Corps area, from Cambodia all the way around to the Bo De River. I never saw, even heard of all of these so-called atrocities and things that we were supposed to have done.

This is not true. We're not standing for it. We want to set the record straight."

-- William Shumadine

"I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of 1969. My service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat Lo, and nine months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. John Kerry was in An Thoi the same time I was. I'm here today to express the anger I have harbored for over 33 years, about being accused with my fellow shipmates of war atrocities.

All I can say is when I leave here today, I'm going down to the Wall to tell my two crew members it's not true, and that they and the other 49 Swiftees who are on the Wall were then and are still now the best."

-- Robert Brant