Author Topic: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...  (Read 22149 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • Guest
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2008, 07:59:48 PM »
http://hnn.us/articles/3552.html

war criminal comment and followup waffle

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2008, 08:02:50 PM »
Quote
Kerry was based on the Mekong Delta in Dec '68-Jan '69 - which means that he may well have been in Cambodia, as operations were taking place across the border at that time.

How about Kerry's own words from his journal Huh?
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/journal_day2.shtml

Or the sworn statements of Officers serving at that time ??

Quote
Despite the dramatic memories of his Christmas in Cambodia, Kerrys statements are complete lies. Kerry was never in Cambodia during Christmas 1968, or at all during the Vietnam War. In reality, during Christmas 1968, he was more than fifty miles away from Cambodia. Kerry was never ordered into Cambodia by anyone and would have been court-martialed had he gone there.

During Christmas 1968, Kerry was stationed at Coastal Division 13 in Cat Lo. Coastal Division 13s patrol areas extended to Sa Dec, about fifty-five miles from the Cambodian border. Areas closer than fifty-five miles to the Cambodian border in the area of the Mekong River were patrolled by PBRs, a small river patrol craft, and not by Swift Boats. Preventing border crossings was considered so important at the time that an LCU (a large, mechanized landing craft) and several PBRs were stationed to ensure that no one could cross the border.

A large sign at the border prohibited entry. Tom Anderson, Commander of River Division 531, who was in charge of the PBRs, confirmed that there were no Swifts anywhere in the area and that they would have been stopped had they appeared.

All the living commanders in Kerrys chain of commandJoe Streuhli (Commander of CosDiv 13), George Elliott (Commander of CosDiv 11), Adrian Lonsdale (Captain, USCG and Commander, Coastal Surveillance Center at An Thoi), Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (Commander, Coastal Surveillance Force Vietnam, CTF 115), and Rear Admiral Art Price (Commander of River Patrol Force, CTF 116)deny that Kerry was ever ordered to Cambodia. They indicate that Kerry would have been seriously disciplined or court-martialed had he gone there. At least three of the five crewmen on Kerrys PCF 44 boatBill Zaldonis, Steven Hatch, and Steve Gardnerdeny that they or their boat were ever in Cambodia. The remaining two crewmen declined to be interviewed for this book. Gardner, in particular, will never forget those days in late December when he was wounded on PCF 44, not in Cambodia, but many miles away in Vietnam.

The story is a total preposterous fabrication by Kerry. Exhibit 8 is an affidavit by the Commander of the Swift boats in Vietnam, Admiral Roy Hoffmann, stating that Kerry's claim to be in Cambodia for Christmas Eve and Christmas of 1968 is a total lie. If necessary, similar affidavits are available from the entire chain of command. In reality, Kerry was at Sa Dec -- easily locatable on any map more than fifty miles from Cambodia. Kerry himself inadvertently admits that he was in Sa Dec for Christmas Eve and Christmas and not in Cambodia, as he had stated for so many years on the Senate Floor, in the newspapers, and elsewhere. Exhibit 27, Tour, pp. 213-219. Sa Dec is hardly "close" to the Cambodian border. In reality, far from being ordered secretly to Cambodia, Kerry spent a pleasant night at Sa Dec with "visions of sugar plums" dancing in his head. Exhibit 27, p. 219. At Sa Dec where the Swift boat patrol area ended, there were many miles of other boats (PBR's) leading to the Cambodian border. There were also gunboats on the border to prevent any crossing. If Kerry tried to get through, he would have been arrested. Obviously, Kerry has hardly been honest about his service in Vietnam

Yep, it's a conspiracy...... They're all lying and Kerry is only one telling the truth.......  What's the flavor of the Kool-Aid your drinking ??
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • Guest
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2008, 08:05:16 PM »

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2008, 08:24:42 PM »
Very good, scout, you've posted three statements that give us a much clearer view of the reason some people signed (aside from pure partisanship): not because Kerry lied, or because Kerry didn't deserve his medals or any of the other Swift Boat claims - but because of Kerry's anti-war activism after the fact. Which should not, of course, color his service at all.

That journal entry - which you apparently take as fact, since you're offering it as evidence - makes repeated mention of moving close to the Cambodian border. Which jibes with the statements of those who actually served with Kerry - they did not knowingly cross the border, but were working on it and may have actually passed over. And according to other statements, the swift boats were working with PBRs at the time.

Note that in the quote repeated, Kerry has not claimed to be on a mission into Cambodia, or entering combat in Cambodia or anything else.

As a final note, if you're going to directly quote a group in order to support that group's argument, you should cite your source. I am shocked, shocked I say, that the Swift Boat Troofer website echoes the Swift Boat Troofer party line.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • Guest

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2008, 08:51:07 PM »
Um, yeah, you keep posting the same info from the same sources. We know that Swifties don't like Kerry. Can you find independent sources for any of your information?

You made references to two recantations made by Kerry - but have not yet found the specific statements made or the specific recantations.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • Guest
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2008, 08:53:31 PM »
open link in post 50 for his original staement and followup waffle

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2008, 09:38:26 PM »
Quote
The baaah is meant to be insulting.  If you believed the swift boat veterans without question then you are a sheep.  If you do not like being a sheep, then look up some time. Dont defend being a sheep.

Well, let's see.  Somebody in this thread is hurling insults.

Anybody care to guess who that is, considering they took particular delight in admitting to it.

Word to the wise, Herr Brer - folks who insult others on this forum don't last terribly long as members.

This is a CIVIL place to discuss politics.  I don't care if one loathes Republicans, Democrats, or Independents.  We discuss topics in a polite fashion here, or we invite those incapable of doing so to vent their spleens elsewhere.

Consider this a warning. Capiche'?

 
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,397
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2008, 11:24:58 PM »
1.  It's amusing how some people so uncritically accept Kerry's military record, while entertaining all manner of rumor and innuendo about Bush's service.  Even though the criticism of Kerry is much more well-substantiated.  If you won't accept the SBVT claims, you shouldn't accept the criticism of Bush's service, either.

2.  Bush's service or lack thereof is immaterial to the issue of Kerry's service, or McCain's.

3.  Tecumseh's charge is that Republicans are hypocritical to place such importance on McCain's military record, when they scoffed at Kerry's. 
  • This assumes that McCain supporters are inordinately fixated on his military service.  But this assumption is merely a smear tactic.
  • Even if true, there is no hypocrisy involved, because no one has come forward to challenge McCain's military record, as Kerry's has been challenged.

4.
Quote from: brer
If the swift boaters had made their comments before Kerry tried for election, I might have believed them.  But the way they have been presented is symptomatic of having been bought off.

Actually, John O'Neill mixed it up with Kerry as early as 1971.

http://horse.he.net/~swiftpow/index.php?topic=KerryONeill
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,632
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2008, 01:48:11 AM »
It's a matter of credibility . . .

John Kerry made a public spectacle of himself by throwing his medals away in front of cameras.

Yet once he became a senator, the medals he threw away surprisingly showed up in his office.

When confronted, he admitted he threw someone else's medals away, NOT his own as he'd claimed.

Since he lied about something that simple, why should he have ANY credibility when he says something else related to his service record - especially when he STEADFASTLY REFUSES to release them?

(BTW, there aren't many real, dyed-in-the-wool Bush supporters here - repeatedly bringing in "shrub" is just a transparent attempt to deflect criticism directed at Kerry.)
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

brer

  • New Member
  • Posts: 56
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2008, 03:24:52 AM »
Gewehr98

I understand the warning.


BTW is is spelled capisce. Capisce?

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2008, 03:37:21 AM »
Disregard
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2008, 03:50:28 AM »
BTW is is spelled capisce. Capisce?
Actually, is is spelled "is."  If you're gonna be a smart ass, at least check your stuff first.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Sergeant Bob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,861
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2008, 07:06:05 AM »
BTW is is spelled capisce. Capisce?
Actually, is is spelled "is."  If you're gonna be a smart ass, at least check your stuff first.

Twoshay! grin
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

James Fitzer

  • Guest
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2008, 07:25:17 AM »
Jesus tapdancin' christ. This topic has been done to death. It's the same damned debate that happened in 04, only updated.

Who the hell cares?

No, seriously... WHO. THE. HELL. CARES.

First of all, Kerry isn't running. Why stir the pot with stupid damned hypotheticals.

Secondly, a man's military service and his political record are two different animals. I know plenty of outstanding soldiers who I wouldn't trust to manage a liquor store, much less run a country.

Third, why the hell are we feeding the trolls.

Jesus people... this is pathetic. For the love of god, close this stupid thread before we all get stupider as a result of reading it.



Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,397
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2008, 07:38:40 AM »
Quote from: HankB
John Kerry made a public spectacle of himself by throwing his medals away in front of cameras.

Yet once he became a senator, the medals he threw away surprisingly showed up in his office.

When confronted, he admitted he threw someone else's medals away, NOT his own as he'd claimed.


I'm not a big military geek, so maybe of you grizzled old veterans can help me out with something. 

When I was highly-decorated soldier, my medals had two components.  On the one hand, they were words on paper, stating that I had earned the highly-coveted Army Service Ribbon, etc.   smiley   On the other hand, they were ribbons and metal discs, and such.  Sometimes, I was given the physical bit of fruit salad.  Sometimes, I had to go and buy it, in order to wear it on my Class A's.  I think I lost one or two of them, and had to buy replacements at the Clothing Sales store.   

The question is this:  When Kerry threw some physical bits of fruit salad (PBFS) over the fence, does it matter whether they were the same items given to him, or which he bought?  If they were someone else's PBFS, that wouldn't matter, would it?  If he said they were his, then he has rejected his own decorations, even if his PBFS were still lying about in his sock drawer. 

If he hung up some medals on his wall, that doesn't mean he's lying about throwing them over the fence, right?  They're just PBFS that are easily replaced from a number of mail-order catalogs.  The words on paper are what really counts, aren't they?  So the problem would be, not so much that he lied, as that he apparently rejected his awards, then pretended that it had never happened. 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2008, 08:25:35 AM »
  I would not call Worldnetdaily an unbiased source.  So people hate the fact that he spoke out against the war. Did he not have the right to?  I do believe he fought for that right, didn't he.  Why is he hated for that? 

James Fitzer

  • Guest
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2008, 08:27:52 AM »
I had a long diatribe prepared. But then realized that i was falling into this silly thread.

Ugh


Can you provide at least seventy-five (75) sources for the postulation that he's hated? With footnotes, if you please.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • Guest
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2008, 08:29:40 AM »
  I would not call Worldnetdaily an unbiased source.  So people hate the fact that he spoke out against the war. Did he not have the right to?  I do believe he fought for that right, didn't he.  Why is he hated for that? 

i know this comes as a shock but while a reserve officer kerry did not have the right to meet with and "negotiate" with the enemy. its so different than the rules in school its confusing.of course then kerry might not have been granted his place of honor in the enemy war museum. it does make him special though as far as i know hes the only us "hero" so honored by the enemy.

Tecumseh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2008, 08:31:21 AM »
What rules are you talking about?   Can you show me some information about this enemy war museum with a shrine to John Kerry?

James Fitzer

  • Guest
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2008, 08:32:30 AM »
Heh... what a choad. Are you serious?

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,207
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2008, 08:58:24 AM »
Well, I just get a laugh out of that picture of Al Gore "in the field in the 'Nam" wearing a rain coat... And trying to forehead-check his weapon.
Blog under construction

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,397
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2008, 09:23:23 AM »
This one here?

"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,207
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2008, 09:29:14 AM »
Yup. Ain't that a purty boonie hat too?

And stuff be fallin' offa that ruck most chop-chop...
 
Blog under construction

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Thoughts on the Kerry Swiftboat issue...
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2008, 09:31:17 AM »
cassandrasdaddy, I already referred to the 'enemy war museum' BS. You don't help your cause by continuing to spread obvious fictions.

As for 'negotiating with the enemy' - you are once again inappropriately vague.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."