Have you ever been in poverty?

[Declaration Day]

I think the American definition of "poverty" is not being able to buy anything you want right this second 

Your post reminded me of a comment my cousin made to me a couple of years ago.  She latched on to a young engineer who was making $150K at the time, probably 12-14 years ago.  Like her sisters, she wouldn't even talk to man without a six-figure income.  They didn't grow up rich, but their gold-digging mother raised them that way.  Ironically, his hectic work schedule and her lavish spending contributed greatly to their divorce. 

Anyway, we were at a family gathering and the Mega Millions lottery had come up in conversation.  It was well over $200 mil that week.  So the aforementioned cousin said to me "If I hit the jackpot I'd really like to help you guys out, because you don't have much."

Wha...huh?

I was insulted and in an irritated tone replied "What do you mean?  I have everything I need and most of what I want. I'm doing just fine."

I'm nowhere near rich, but I have a modest home, three nice cars, a business, and a big plot of hunting land in northern MI.  We buy a lot of stuff from dollar and discount stores, but we're not lacking anything.  Poverty indeed.   

I bet 80% of the world's population would love to live at the average American's definition of poverty.

[BridgeWalker]

It's difficult to find a good definition of American poverty.  I think one has to take into account one's ability to live without violating laws.  We have all kinds of laws, regulations, and expectations that, when one fails to meet them, can have serious adverse legal consequences.

For example, a family of my acquaintance was threatened by CPS with removal of their children for failing to provide a safe environment.  Their offense?  Not replacing a water-damaged carpet, but merely pulling it up and sanding down the plywood underneath.  Another offense?  Not having replaced their broken hot water heater (hence the water damaged carpet).  Apparently now, heating water on the stove for bathing is not acceptable.

Good luck renting a two-bedroom apartment for you and your three kids.  In the US, four people in four rooms+bath (typical two-bedroom apartment: kitchen, living area, bedroom, bedroom, bath) is generally a health and safety violation.  Sounds nuts to me.

And then there's homelessness.  Tom Brown, a tracker and outdoorsman from NJ, once tried surviving "off the land" in Manhattan.  He reported that it was incredibly easy to find excellent food and shelter, without stealing or otherwise causing trouble.  But he broke lots of laws doing that, law designed to force people into homes.  By his definition he was wasn't in poverty; he was living very well and enjoying it.  But I think that in order to be not in poverty one has to have the resources to be able to not violate laws.

So, it's not just that we demand more than most nations; it's that our government requires us to have more than most people throughout history have ever had. If one has children, this becomes especially menacing.

[gunsmith]

Americans tend to disappear when they live in real poverty, its not something they brag about or shout about.
They eke out an existence among us, under bridges & in burned out buildings and in doorways.
They are confused and depressed and ill.
They are young and walk in the snow with sneakers that have holes in them.
Angry skin diseases cause irritated outburst.
They yearn for revenge against the enormous egos of the scolding class.

[Tallpine]

It's difficult to find a good definition of American poverty.  I think one has to take into account one's ability to live without violating laws.  We have all kinds of laws, regulations, and expectations that, when one fails to meet them, can have serious adverse legal consequences.

I said years ago that it's illegal to be poor in this country. 

There was a guy near Crested Butte that tried to live in a yurt on his own land.  There was no technical law against it, so the city/county invalidated his driveway access to the highway 

[Barbara]

I was homeless most of the time from age 13 to 16, and was in worse shape before that.

[MechAg94]

Nope.  Never been in poverty.  I thank my parents for that.  My Dad worked hard and learned his profession and never lacked for work even when things were slow.  He did commute all over the state to different jobs though.  Both parents believed that saving and maintaining a nice house was more important than drinking or partying.  My two brothers and I all graduated college are all doing better than my Dad did when he was our age.  Can't beat that. 

The closest connection I have to poverty is my Grandfather on my Dad's side was a bum in the 30's for a while.  He eventually found work in some of Roosevelt's work programs and later did pretty well for himself.  My Dad and his brothers worked on a decent size farm when he was young. 

Not sure what I would do if I fell in that situation.  Another good reason for me to keep working on getting my savings beefed up.

[bdutton]

In my childhood years and college yes. 2 of the three years I spent in college was in low income housing. 3 months specifically spent in 'the projects'.

Growing up, my parents were never wealthy. They never reached what most consider middle class until I entered high school. For the school year, we went shopping for clothes we could only afford 1 pair of new sneakers, a new t-shirt and a new pair of jeans. We had a small home we owned (with a mortgage). My father operated a small laundromat and my mother split time between the laundromat and her father's stamp business to pay the bills. My father got out of the laundromat business and got a job as a US Customs inspector and my Mom got a job with H&R Block around the time I started HS. We moved out of the old home and my Dad built a new house on some land we bought cheap out in the country. That house was 50% built my our family. My father had some trees cut in the woods and rough cut into lumber which he then planed himself to use for the floors, paneling and siding. I installed all the floors (oak) in the upstairs rooms myself at age 15. We also had pre-heated water using solar panels (utter failure in the long run) I went to a small HS and graduated with marginal grades. Class of 60 people. I loafed around my first summer and worked a dairy farm during the winer months (in upstate NY). I was responsible for feeding cows, milking, haying, and even the nastiest job of de-horning the hefers. Up at 4am, and in bed by 2am (ah... youth!).

I decided to get an education rather than keep pulling tits for a living. I got a brochure for DeVry Uni so I checked it out and decided to go to Columbus OH to study to be a programmer (never once having owned or used a computer). My grandmother gave me $2000 for the first trimester and the rest of my tuition was paid with student loans. I worked 20-30 hours per week to pay for food and rent. My Mom sometimes sent me funds to help with stuff. I was even eligible for food stamps but refused to take them.

I graduated wi a BS in Computer Science in 2 years and 8 months.

Got a job as a Computer operator on the night shift (12 hour shift) for $12,200 per year for a company that was running the Ohio State Lottery. Did a good job and got promoted quickly. In 4 years I was traveling though Europe and North America training other computer operators, writing documentation and running QA testing for some of the largest Lotteries in the world.

Now I'm part of the top 10% paying 90% of the taxes. 

[GigaBuist]

Yeah, but I was too young at the time to know it.

I was born in 1980.  Parents got married, mom quit her job to raise me and they bought my grandpa's old dilapidated house originally built around 1860.  Dad was a truck driver trying to save up money to start a business.  Frugal fellow.  When he decided it was time to start saving money (must have been around '79, it was when he still lived in a trailer) he started unplugging his alarm clock when he went to work.  No need to waste the electricity on a clock when he's not there.

House didn't have any insulation to speak of, was heated by a wood stove, and the well... well he drove that himself.  Thankfully you can find water there at 8 feet.  It's colored funny, but it's potable.

I remember the neighbor girls coming over one day to play with us. When one went to the bathroom she freaked out.  The bathtub was full of that yellow-ish water, which when pooled up in a tub it looks more of an orangish brown.  We re-used bathwater frequently, which is why it was still full.  Costs money to draw a fresh bath for everybody throughout the day.

Septic system broke one winter.  Dad rigged up the toilet to pour into a 50 gallon drum in the basement.  He'd haul it out and dump it in the back yard every couple days. That probably wasn't up to the local building code.

At the end of 1985 he was thrilled when he got done with taxes.  Between his business and trucking job he had made $10k after taxes.  With a family of five.

Seriously, he thought he was friggen rich.  He went out and bought my mom a new set of pots and pans.  She was pissed at him for that.  One:  bad gift idea, two:  she thought it was a waste of money.

All the saving and hard work paid off.  By the time I was 10 we were certainly in the middle class.  When I was 18 the money was there to send me off to college.

Sunday evening I went over to the parent's brand new 4,000 sq ft. house (built next to the old one) for dinner.  We had mom's shepherd's pie.  Love that stuff.  After dinner I spent an hour in my dad's new theatre room playing Halo 3 with him and my younger brothers on a 94" DLP projection screen in leather reclining chairs.  He's certainly not lacking money any more.

He still buys canned goods by the case when they're on sale though.

[LadySmith]

I was homeless most of the time from age 13 to 16, and was in worse shape before that.

That's scary because it was practically the same with me.
Ever hear stories about a stray mutt who lurked around the fringes of some farm, mostly feral, starving, abused and abandoned; people would shoot at it for kicks and beat it if they caught it?
Well, as a kid, that mutt was me. So yes, I guess I was in poverty, but it was inflicted.

Left home, migrated to a city, was raised by outlaws, so money came & went.
It didn't matter. My "family" and freedom were more important.

Decided I wanted to live to the ripe old age of 25, so I gave up that life to become a citizen.
Got a job and acquired stability. Got a place, got a car and life was good.

Got stalked, got attacked, got arrested and lost it all. Back to poverty.

Started over, replaced all that I lost with better things and life is good again.
For now.

[Barbara]

Good. I hope it works out for you. I'm betting it will.

[Ryan in Maine]

I voted no. While I've been (and am) pretty damn poor as far as money goes, I cannot consider my living conditions to ever be (or ever have been) true poverty. I can't look at urban poverty or rural poverty in the US and put it in the same category as African countries, Eastern Asia, the Middle East, Central America, South America, etc. Urban/rural poverty in the US probably looks like a nice upscale village to most inhabitants of those regions.

Things I can't afford (at the age of 23):
- Shelter. Solution? I'm going to live with my mother until school is finished or I can swing a decent job.
- Health care. Solution? I'm eligible for Maine Care under their disability criteria.
- Groceries. Solution? I chip in enough money to cover most of my weekly food costs.
- Women. Solution? Trailer parks.
- Firearms. Solution? I'll save a chunk of money and my mother or grandparents will chip in for a holiday.
- Transportation. Solution? I'm driving the same old '97 Pontiac Sunfire I've been driving.

Someday relatively soon I'll:
- Rent my own place.
- Get past my disability and get off Maine Care.
- Pay for my own groceries.
- Date a supermodel.
- Buy several firearms a year.
- Get a new car.

To someone who lives in true poverty, my meager income (I do make money intermittently even without steady employment) would be kingly. Personally, I don't agree with the US government's definition. The only thing in the US that seems comparable to me is true homelessness. Even then, they have at least limited access to food/water, shelter, and knowledge that inhabitants of the aforementioned regions might have a hard time believing.

This subject is a whole lot of semantics to me. All I know is that I only feel poor.

[JohnBT]

No, we never missed a meal or had to eat ketchup sandwiches on moldy bread.

My parents were born in '22 and '24 and experienced the Depression. They worked hard and were frugal without being outright cheap. They beat responsibility and money management into my head in addition to leading by example.

I suppose today's upwardly mobile middle class would think I grew up sort of poor, but I didn't think so. When I was in elementary school we lived in a rowhouse in Baltimore and had a Chevy. And a b&w tv that received 3 channels. I had a ball and a glove and in fourth or fifth grade I got my first football. Seemed ideal at the time.

John

[jnojr]

Poverty has nothing to do with the contents of your wallet.

I've known people who had very little money who were by no means "poor".  And I've known people who made six figure salarys who never had enough and were always one paycheck away from disaster.

[Ezekiel]

Zeke, take a few days off, get the bleep outta town. Come visit someone. Lots of folks out here who'll give you couch space. Hell, I'll put you to work - I need bumper sticker ideas before Knob Creek. For that matter, your sorry ass had BETTER be at Knob Creek. You're going to camp. With other people. And you're going to like it.

You have no idea how much this idea is growing on me! 

Back to the poverty thread?  I've seen true poverty.  I have never been even CLOSE to that...

I recall some tv program, somewhere, where a guy said he wanted to live in America, "where even the poor people are fat."

PERSPECTIVE.

[Lee]

Not really, but... when I was younger, there was a time when I rented a bedroom in a mobile home, had no food and no income.  I survived one summer by eating left-over veggies from the local farmers market. I lived in a semi- rural area where people got in line for a job as a gas station clerk.  I got lucky and got that job.  My first wife and I once pawned our wedding rings to keep the heat on.  My parents were solidly middle class, and likely would have loaned us a little money, but we wouldn't do that.
My second wife and I have been married for 19 years and we are doing well.  Neither of us ever considered not doing well as an option.  We have been blessed with good health and full (good paying) employment. She put herself through college, and I returned to college in my thirties (after working 10 years as a sales rep).  We ALWAYS payed at least 10% of our pay into a savings plan of some type.
Barring some sort of disaster, we will both retire before the age of 60.  Any work after that will be of our choosing, for fun, or to escape boredom.   

[Barbara]

I recall some tv program, somewhere, where a guy said he wanted to live in America, "where even the poor people are fat."

That's not necessarily true.

[BridgeWalker]

This thread is starting to get pretty disturbing.  I'm kind of glad I edited out my personal story. 

Yes, poverty is *partly* a state of mind.  Yes, it is usually possible to survive on fairly little.  Yes, it is usually possible to keep an upbeat attitude through being poor, and to work to get out of being poor.

But it's a little disturbing that people who, of their own admission, are very, very far from poor and who have never experienced anything close to poverty or deprivation of the basic things like food and shelter and medical care are waxing poetic about how no American can possibly know what poverty is. 

I was only homeless for days, and managed to scrounge a roof to sleep under, mostly.  I rarely had no food, although a person can starve to death on ramen noodles.  My brush with poverty was brief, mostly because I got some help from my husband's family.  But I've sheltered people who were poor.  Sorry, even in America, not having the money to do the things you need to do to keep your kids is gut-wrenching, and it's pretty hard to stay upbeat about that.  One of the people who lived with me came to my house instead of shelter because she could not bring her son to the shelter.  She would have lost custody and visitation. 

Often in the US the poor become the impoverished when the government punishes their poverty with fines or with threats.

Often the poor in the US are hungry, sometimes simply because they have no place to store even the incredibly cheap food we have in this country, or no way to cook it.  Foods that are edible without any kind of cooking are less cheap.

I wasn't impoverished for very long, although my family was poor when I was little.  In my experience many people never lose that fear.  I have more cheap food in my basement that my family will ever need to have stored, in all likelihood.  I'd like to pretend it's rugged survivalism.  It isn't.  It's that you end up always trying to keep that corner stocked up, for just in case. 

Yes, it's good to have a positive attitude.  Yes, it's pretty arrogant to talk about how Americans don't know poverty.  Especially if you have never lived it yourself.   

I'm pretty sure poverty has *something* to do with the contents of one's wallet.  No everything, but not nothing neither.

[BlueStarLizzard]

i am poor, by both government standards and by what most people on here would consider to be poor. its really hard to climb out of a hole that was created before you had a say in how things worked out, and due to circumstances beyond your control that have piled on.
its really hard that my dad has to get a statment from his brother and from a friend (who provids for free the land we live on) that he is destitute just so he can get medical care. its even harder to relize that, despite the fact that he works hard, its actually true.
yes, bad choices have been made. yes, we could change things around if we comprimised what few standards we still hold by. but its not easy, when everytime you THINK you might have managed to pull off a success that will improve things, something happens that completly knocks you off your feet. and it doesn't take much to knock you off your feet finaically when you don't have much room to stand in the first place.
(and by the way, because i've gotten yelled at before for this, the computer i am on was purchased 5 years ago by a friend of the family as a gift and that person still pays the internet service)
and, no, i havn't given up. i will climb out of this hole, somehow. and considering my options, i'll most likely have to do it on my own.

[Lee]

something happens that completly knocks you off your feet. and it doesn't take much to knock you off your feet finaically when you don't have much room to stand in the first place.

That's very true.  In fact, it's easy to get knocked off your feet even when you're doing OK.  A very good friend of mine is living in poverty now; due to a bad divorce settlement, a lapse in health care coverage (he was self employed and dropped his coverage during a financial downturn) and lastly, a series of heart attacks.   He is one of the most ambitious people I've ever known; a college grad with an IT degree, who once had a thriving consulting business.  It's pretty easy to run through your life's savings with a few trips to the ER and extended hospital stays.
He is not reflected at all in the government's data, as he doesn't qualify for disability (yet); doesn't collect unemployment; is too young for Medicaid and is too old/ and sick to appeal to employers.   Life is very difficult for many people, for a variety of reasons.     

[Ezekiel]

I recall some tv program, somewhere, where a guy said he wanted to live in America, "where even the poor people are fat."

That's not necessarily true.

True, but the gist rings correctly.

[LAK]

I have seen real poverty while living for a year in what was formerly east pakistan in the 1960s. We have not had, save during the 1930s, what could be called real poverty in 20th century America.

There certainly are poor folk; however, anyone with the will to do so can get sufficient aid for food and shelter - be it private or publicly funded.

We could ax all publicly funded aid and there would still be sufficient private charity in this country for the genuine poor.

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