Author Topic: Rule by fear or rule by law?  (Read 46487 times)

Finch

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Rule by fear or rule by law?
« on: February 21, 2008, 10:02:35 AM »
Rule by fear or rule by law?
Lewis Seiler,Dan Hamburg
Monday, February 4, 2008



"The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist."

- Winston Churchill, Nov. 21, 1943

Since 9/11, and seemingly without the notice of most Americans, the federal government has assumed the authority to institute martial law, arrest a wide swath of dissidents (citizen and noncitizen alike), and detain people without legal or constitutional recourse in the event of "an emergency influx of immigrants in the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs."

Beginning in 1999, the government has entered into a series of single-bid contracts with Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR) to build detention camps at undisclosed locations within the United States. The government has also contracted with several companies to build thousands of railcars, some reportedly equipped with shackles, ostensibly to transport detainees.

According to diplomat and author Peter Dale Scott, the KBR contract is part of a Homeland Security plan titled ENDGAME, which sets as its goal the removal of "all removable aliens" and "potential terrorists."

Fraud-busters such as Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Los Angeles, have complained about these contracts, saying that more taxpayer dollars should not go to taxpayer-gouging Halliburton. But the real question is: What kind of "new programs" require the construction and refurbishment of detention facilities in nearly every state of the union with the capacity to house perhaps millions of people?

Sect. 1042 of the 2007 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), "Use of the Armed Forces in Major Public Emergencies," gives the executive the power to invoke martial law. For the first time in more than a century, the president is now authorized to use the military in response to "a natural disaster, a disease outbreak, a terrorist attack or any other condition in which the President determines that domestic violence has occurred to the extent that state officials cannot maintain public order."

The Military Commissions Act of 2006, rammed through Congress just before the 2006 midterm elections, allows for the indefinite imprisonment of anyone who donates money to a charity that turns up on a list of "terrorist" organizations, or who speaks out against the government's policies. The law calls for secret trials for citizens and noncitizens alike.

Also in 2007, the White House quietly issued National Security Presidential Directive 51 (NSPD-51), to ensure "continuity of government" in the event of what the document vaguely calls a "catastrophic emergency." Should the president determine that such an emergency has occurred, he and he alone is empowered to do whatever he deems necessary to ensure "continuity of government." This could include everything from canceling elections to suspending the Constitution to launching a nuclear attack. Congress has yet to hold a single hearing on NSPD-51.

U.S. Rep. Jane Harman, D-Venice (Los Angeles County) has come up with a new way to expand the domestic "war on terror." Her Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007 (HR1955), which passed the House by the lopsided vote of 404-6, would set up a commission to "examine and report upon the facts and causes" of so-called violent radicalism and extremist ideology, then make legislative recommendations on combatting it.

According to commentary in the Baltimore Sun, Rep. Harman and her colleagues from both sides of the aisle believe the country faces a native brand of terrorism, and needs a commission with sweeping investigative power to combat it.

A clue as to where Harman's commission might be aiming is the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act, a law that labels those who "engage in sit-ins, civil disobedience, trespass, or any other crime in the name of animal rights" as terrorists. Other groups in the crosshairs could be anti-abortion protesters, anti-tax agitators, immigration activists, environmentalists, peace demonstrators, Second Amendment rights supporters ... the list goes on and on. According to author Naomi Wolf, the National Counterterrorism Center holds the names of roughly 775,000 "terror suspects" with the number increasing by 20,000 per month.

What could the government be contemplating that leads it to make contingency plans to detain without recourse millions of its own citizens?

The Constitution does not allow the executive to have unchecked power under any circumstances. The people must not allow the president to use the war on terrorism to rule by fear instead of by law.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/04/ED5OUPQJ7.DTL
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

Manedwolf

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2008, 10:10:57 AM »



Quote
Beginning in 1999, the government has entered into a series of single-bid contracts with Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR) to build detention camps at undisclosed locations within the United States. The government has also contracted with several companies to build thousands of railcars, some reportedly equipped with shackles, ostensibly to transport detainees.

 rolleyes cheesy

Finch

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2008, 10:13:12 AM »
Ahhhh, your posts never fail to offer compelling arguments and substantive responses....

 rolleyes
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

Manedwolf

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2008, 10:18:55 AM »
And yours indicates reasoning of the sort that comes from someone who didn't take their medication. Seriously, did you even read that nonsense before copypasta here?

Finch

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2008, 10:23:19 AM »
And yours indicates reasoning of the sort that comes from someone who didn't take their medication. Seriously, did you even read that nonsense before copypasta here?

And then when all else fails we can resort to petty insults. NO NO NO, don't debate the topic, debate the person.  rolleyes
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

Manedwolf

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2008, 10:26:10 AM »
I'm talking about the loon that wrote it. Your reposting it just shows poor judgment.

Bogie

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2008, 10:30:15 AM »

Blog under construction

Finch

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2008, 10:30:45 AM »
I'm talking about the loon that wrote it. Your reposting it just shows poor judgment.

Really? "And yours indicates reasoning of the sort that comes from someone who didn't take their medication. "
Fine, whatever.

What is so off about the article. The laws are there. The contracts are there. Can you tell me why the Federal Government feels the need to house millions of people in detention centers, complete with railways to and from?
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

Jamisjockey

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2008, 10:36:39 AM »
Children, you can both relax.  Mine is bigger.
JD

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Manedwolf

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2008, 10:38:56 AM »
What is so off about the article. The laws are there. The contracts are there. Can you tell me why the Federal Government feels the need to house millions of people in detention centers, complete with railways to and from?

Psst.

THEY MADE THAT UP.

You see, in bookstores and on TV, there's things called "fiction", and "nonfiction". And when people can't tell one from the other, it's time for them to go into a special padded room with a huggy jacket and happy pills...not for them to write published "news" articles.



Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2008, 02:38:41 PM »
It takes a special sort of someone to believe that the Al Qaida isn't a threat to the US, and that the US government is planning to arrest and imprison millions of its own citizens on a whim.



Indeed...

Paddy

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2008, 03:24:53 PM »
Quote
It takes a special sort of someone to believe that the Al Qaida isn't a threat to the US, and that the US government is planning to arrest and imprison millions of its own citizens on a whim.

The question is, who is the bigger threat, Al Queda, or our own government armed with their self delegated powers?

I notice no one has countered the raw facts stated in the article, only the conclusions drawn from those facts. 

Manedwolf

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2008, 03:31:03 PM »
Quote
It takes a special sort of someone to believe that the Al Qaida isn't a threat to the US, and that the US government is planning to arrest and imprison millions of its own citizens on a whim.

The question is, who is the bigger threat, Al Queda, or our own government armed with their self delegated powers?

I notice no one has countered the raw facts stated in the article, only the conclusions drawn from those facts. 

I'd say it's the people with the bombs and dull machetes, really. That's a little more drastic than pesky lawyers with ideas that can be challenged right back in courts.

You can't file an appeal when someone runs up on you with a suicide vest, screaming about allah.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2008, 03:40:55 PM »
I notice no one has countered the raw facts stated in the article, only the conclusions drawn from those facts. 
Raw facts?

Howsabout the raw fact that not one single camp has been built.  Howsabout the raw fact that none are going to be built, unless an emergency situation makes it necessary. 

The contract states that KBR must be ready to build facilities just in case of an emergency.  It's nothing more than a sensible element of reasonable disaster preparation.

Reading the article quoted in the original post would give you the impression that these camps are being built right now.  The "journalists" do their darndest to make it sound like Big Brother is spending money on camps that we don't need.  Then they use this (false) information as evidence for their own delusional tinfoil hattery.  "The only explanation for these camps is that They want to round up innocent people in the middle of the night and then lock them up forever for no reason."

It's atrocious journalism, limited understanding, and a serious case of paranoia.  It really is fiction, although a good novel would probably be more entertaining.

How many times did we hear about how George Bush failed to provide enough disaster assistance in New Orleans?  Now the gov is being criticised for too much disaster preparation.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Paddy

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2008, 03:54:07 PM »
So, constitutional violations and usurpation of powers are ok with you as long as the government doesn't abuse it?  IOW, the rule of law no longer matters because Al Queda hit us on 9/11?

{{shrug}}  We'll see if you sing the same tune when these self delegated powers are in the hands of a Democrat president and Congress.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2008, 03:59:23 PM »
So much for that discussion of raw facts...

Bogie

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2008, 04:17:12 PM »
Blog under construction

seeker_two

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2008, 04:21:46 PM »
I'd like someone to actually DISPROVE the OP with actual facts instead of name-calling and ridicule for a change.....

Children, you can both relax.  Mine is bigger.

Let's not bring your wife's bank account into this....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Bogie

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2008, 04:23:46 PM »
Quote
ridicule for a change

That's sounding like Obama's campaign...

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Paddy

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2008, 04:31:42 PM »
I think history teaches us that every government, given too much power, eventually tyrannizes its citizens.  Our own country confined some of its citizens to internment camps because they were suspected spies or enemy sympathizers.  There was a 'pressing public necessity'.  That doesn't sound too much different than forced internment to 'support the rapid development of new programs', does it?

I make no conspiratorial claim that imminent plans exist to carry out such confinement of American citizens.  Only that in this country, government does not need, should not have, and in fact is prohibited from possessing such power.   

If someone is guilty of criminal activity, arrest them, try them publically by a jury of their peers, and impose sentence if found guilty.   If you can't do that, you have no business detaining/confining/torturing them.  Not here.  Take that worldview to some totalitarian dictatorship.

De Selby

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2008, 04:42:27 PM »
I find it hard to believe that some people seriously respond to concerns about the government's power to imprison people without trial or any sort of judicial review whatsoever with "So what? It's not like they're going to do it to a lot of people."

It makes me sad to see this, because it is a sign that America is falling into the third world trap of "just do it how the man in charge today wants it and don't worry about the rules...they're flexible." 

One of the greatest things about this place is that it is a nation of professionals-people who set standards and do things the right way, so that we don't have bass-ackwards decisions on a regular basis or a series of bizarre and unpredictable acts taken by those in power.  That is what the rule of law is all about, and the relative lack of "eh, ignore the rules we spent a few hundred years building and just half-ass it your own way" attitude is the main reason that this country is without parallel in personal freedoms. 

Strict adherence to the rules gives you predictable law enforcement, and a set of rules that emphasize personal freedom gives you predictable recognition of your rights.  You start toying with the idea that the rules mean anything, and give the .gov the power to do things "the way it wants as it sees fit for the moment", and you are well on your way to destroying both predictability and freedoms. 

You can't expect freedom to be recognized by a government that doesn't follow its own rules, because the government will answer to its own perceived needs at the moment, not anything else.  Without a clear, rule based system of laws to restrain the government, you have no mechanism of enforcing your rights against whoever happens to hold the reigns on this day or the next.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Bogie

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2008, 04:57:16 PM »
Ah, but rules, at least in the history of this country, are meant to be somewhat flexible...
 
Altho the current generation seems to think that if it's a rule or a policy or a law, that it is somehow engraved in stone.

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De Selby

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2008, 05:12:11 PM »
Ah, but rules, at least in the history of this country, are meant to be somewhat flexible...
 
Altho the current generation seems to think that if it's a rule or a policy or a law, that it is somehow engraved in stone.



Yeah, but the ability to imprison people without any accountability at all isn't one of those flexibilities. 

Note that the constant refrain of "it's a piece of paper, not stone!" is something you hear almost every anti-gunner saying about the constitution.  That is where "flexibility" will take you on these subjects...
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Finch

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Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2008, 06:33:06 PM »
Ah, but rules, at least in the history of this country, are meant to be somewhat flexible...
 
Altho the current generation seems to think that if it's a rule or a policy or a law, that it is somehow engraved in stone.

So by that logic, the right to bear arms can be limited to say...unscoped bolt action .22's? I mean, it's not engraved in stone right?

This forum really needs one of those banghead icons. I'll settle for this  rolleyes
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul