Rule by fear or rule by law?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

make sure to put the shiny side out on that foil  and at nite you need to ground it to a copper pipe  thats when the government beams the microwaves in strongest

[The Rabbi]

So, constitutional violations and usurpation of powers are ok with you as long as the government doesn't abuse it?  IOW, the rule of law no longer matters because Al Queda hit us on 9/11?

{{shrug}}  We'll see if you sing the same tune when these self delegated powers are in the hands of a Democrat president and Congress.

What constitutional violation and usurpation of powers are you talking about?
People scream about Bush violating the constitution but they have yet to find one such thing.

[vernal45]

Let him keep posting.  I need to purchase some stock in reynolds wrap...

[Tecumseh]

Children, you can both relax.  Mine is bigger.

  And mine is bigger.  Sorry it is just genetics...

Seriously though Finch does make a good point.  What does the government need concentration camps for?  Why are they just putting everyone who protests them on lists and labeling them terrorists?  If you ignore it now, it will be much harder to fight it later. 

[Tecumseh]

Link to Google Movie on ENDGAME.

[GeoJAP]

These recent laws and executive orders, which use 9/11 and the associated fear-mongering as motivation, violate every principle embodied in our Constitution that the framers worked so hard to create.

Have you noticed that we aren't even looking for and trying to find Bin Ladin?  The US government now spends more money to spy on its own citizens (domestic spying) than it does for all foreign spy programs combined!

[GeoJAP]

What constitutional violation and usurpation of powers are you talking about?
People scream about Bush violating the constitution but they have yet to find one such thing.

The suspension of Habeas Corpus should be obvious enough for anyone to see.  This is one of the things that got us riled up at King George III so many years ago.  How soon we forget.  Life must be pretty good when you can ignore or be ignorant of such obvious threats to Liberty.

[Tecumseh]

Don't forget the gun grabbing in New Orleans.  Or Das Fuhrer Bush's support to rule Heller v. D.C. in favor of gun grabbers.  Thats ok... he has an R next to his name. 

[The Rabbi]

What constitutional violation and usurpation of powers are you talking about?
People scream about Bush violating the constitution but they have yet to find one such thing.

The suspension of Habeas Corpus should be obvious enough for anyone to see.  This is one of the things that got us riled up at King George III so many years ago.  How soon we forget.  Life must be pretty good when you can ignore or be ignorant of such obvious threats to Liberty.

Suspension of Habeas Corpus, you mean like Lincoln did in the Civil War?

No, there is no suspension of habeas corpus, except in the minds of liberal Bush-haters.
If this is the best "violation of the Constitution" you can come up with, your argument needs tuning.

[GeoJAP]

Suspension of Habeas Corpus, you mean like Lincoln did in the Civil War?

No, there is no suspension of habeas corpus, except in the minds of liberal Bush-haters.
If this is the best "violation of the Constitution" you can come up with, your argument needs tuning.

Jeez, you must not read the news.

1. By labeling an American citizen an "enemy combatant", they can be imprisoned without trial indefinitely.  No more due process in the courts.
2. If you speak out against the government to advocate change, the government can take all your possessions.
3. The Bush administration conspired with telecom companies to illegally wiretap American citizens' domestic communication without a warrant.
4. The Bush administration (Cheney) revealed the identity of a US spy, which is TREASON.
5. They created National Security letters, which when a person is served with one, that person cannot even discuss that the search ever even took place, or they will be charged with a crime.
6. Bush stated that he will not obey legislation if he doesn't want to.  WTF???
7. Finally, Bush's famous quote, "What is it with you people? The Constitution is just A PIECE OF PAPER."

Do you want me to continue?  You Bush-lovers seem to ignore reality and keep your heads in the sand.  I call it like I see it, and our country and Constitution has been shat on by our leadership for and their corporate buddies for quite a few years now. 

Like Ben Franklin said, "Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither."

[Manedwolf]

2. If you speak out against the government to advocate change, the government can take all your possessions.

Thank you, I needed a good laugh. 

[Perd Hapley]

GeoJap, can you substantiate any of those points? 

Edit: see below

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

lets all hold our breath

[The Rabbi]

2. If you speak out against the government to advocate change, the government can take all your possessions.

Thank you, I needed a good laugh. 

"All of your vases are belong to us."

I am sure all of this can be substantiated.  On TheOnion.com

[Perd Hapley]

1. By labeling an American citizen an "enemy combatant", they can be imprisoned without trial indefinitely.  No more due process in the courts.

But people are still being charged, tried, and convicted, as per usual.  How does one go about getting "labeled" as an enemy combatant?  Does this require a judge's order, or what?  If this is going on, why haven't the courts struck it down, as they have gone against Bush on a number of other related issues with terrorist detainees?  How else would you like to deal with members of the enemy force, that happen to be American citizens? 

2. If you speak out against the government to advocate change, the government can take all your possessions.

That sounds like something you just made up.

3. The Bush administration conspired with telecom companies to illegally wiretap American citizens' domestic communication without a warrant.

Please cite specific cases.

4. The Bush administration (Cheney) revealed the identity of a US spy, which is TREASON.

What U.S. spy? 

5. They created National Security letters, which when a person is served with one, that person cannot even discuss that the search ever even took place, or they will be charged with a crime.

I've never heard of that one, so I won't dispute it.

6. Bush stated that he will not obey legislation if he doesn't want to.  WTF???

7. Finally, Bush's famous quote, "What is it with you people? The Constitution is just A PIECE OF PAPER."

Please substantiate.

our country and Constitution has been shat on by our leadership for and their corporate buddies for quite a few years now.

How is this different from the past two hundred years, the Alien and Sedition Acts, etc? 

[Paddy]

I'll take a crack at it.

1. By labeling an American citizen an "enemy combatant", they can be imprisoned without trial indefinitely.  No more due process in the courts.

See Brief for United States, Hamdi v. Rumsfeld,
542 U.S. 507 (2004). See also Brief for United
States, Rumsfeld v. Padilla, 542 U.S. 426 (2004).

See Timothy Lynch, Affront to Civil Liberties,

2. If you speak out against the government to advocate change, the government can take all your possessions.

Section 215 of PAI, which sunseted in 2005.  I don't know whether it was renewed or not.

3. The Bush administration conspired with telecom companies to illegally wiretap American citizens' domestic communication without a warrant.

It's current news.  Bush is seeking complete immunity for telecom companies who gave the Administration who knows how much of what on who knows who.  I think he also wants immunity for him and his cronies for the illegal surveillance.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080225/D8V1F1H00.html

4. The Bush administration (Cheney) revealed the identity of a US spy, which is TREASON.

Scooter Libby took the fall for Cheney, was convicted and sentenced to prison.  Bush commuted his sentence and will no doubt pardon him during his last few days in office.

5. They created National Security letters, which when a person is served with one, that person cannot even discuss that the search ever even took place, or they will be charged with a crime.

Excerpt from the Cato Institute investigation entitled "Power Surge":

The Bush administration has also championed   the use of national security letters (NSLs). An NSL is another subpoena-like device that empowers federal agents to demand certain records from businesspeople.
Unlike search warrants, executive branch agents do not need to apply to judges for these devices. These letters also threaten citizens with jail should they tell anyone about the governments demand. When a constitutional challenge was brought against NSLs, Bushs lawyers argued that they were fully consistent with the Bill of Rights. The federal court was not persuaded. Federal Judge Victor Maerrero ruled that NSLs violated both the Fourth Amendment and the First Amendment.
NSLs violate the Fourth Amendment because they are written in tones sounding virtually as biblical commandments, thus making ithighly unlikely that an NSL recipient reasonablywould know that he may have a right to contest the NSL, and that a process to do so may exist through a judicial proceeding.
NSLs violate the First Amendment becausethey operate as an unconstitutional priorrestraint on speech.

6. Bush stated that he will not obey legislation if he doesn't want to.  WTF???

He included that statement in an addendum when he signed the reauthorization of the Patriot Act in 2006

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/03/24/bush_shuns_patriot_act_requirement/

7. Finally, Bush's famous quote, "What is it with you people? The Constitution is just A PIECE OF PAPER."

Apparently unsubstantiated
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_president_bush_call_the_constitution_a.html

[Perd Hapley]

Riley, thanks.  I'll just hit a couple that I can handle right now, before bed-time. 

4. The Bush administration (Cheney) revealed the identity of a US spy, which is TREASON.

Scooter Libby took the fall for Cheney, was convicted and sentenced to prison.  Bush commuted his sentence and will no doubt pardon him during his last few days in office.

Oh, he meant the Plame case?  Well, that wasn't a treason case, nor was she a spy, that I recall.  And if any classified information was revealed (and if so, why was no one convicted of this?) we now know that it was Richard Armitage who did the alleged revealing, not Dick Cheney.  Speaking of which, how could Libby take the fall for Cheney?  Libby was never convicted of anything Cheney might have done - he was convicted of perjury. 

7. Finally, Bush's famous quote, "What is it with you people? The Constitution is just A PIECE OF PAPER."

Apparently unsubstantiated
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_president_bush_call_the_constitution_a.html

I'm shocked. 

[GeoJAP]

I will retract point number 7 about Bush calling the Constitution "a piece of paper" since it can't be substantiated.  However, all my other points stand.  I'm very frustrated that so many of my fellow citizens seem to purposefully ignore and excuse these new policies that chip away the rights guaranteed to us in our Constitution.  I can't believe that all of you are unaware of them and don't take them seriously.  We all talk about Nazi Germany, Stalinist USSR, Castro's Cuba, etc., but a lot of you seem to be unaware that the very same thing is slowly happening right in front of your very eyes here.  The laws they are passing now are EXACTLY the same as what was passed in those countries to limit personal freedom and rights, while increasing the unbounded power of the state.

Fistful, don't play semantics.  Spy, covert operative, CIA overseas employee, whatever, labeling it a different way does not change what actually happened.  Plame was a "spy" and she was outed by Cheney and Co.  That is treason.

What I actually meant in #2, "If you speak out against the government to advocate change, the government can take all your possessions", was a combination of these two things:
The Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act which defines violent radicalization as, "The process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system ... to advance political, religious, or social change."  So Martin Luther King would have been a terrorist, basically.  Under current laws in the Patriot Act he could be labeled an 'enemy combatant' and imprisoned without trial indefinitely.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1955
...and this executive order, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html, which allows the government to take your property if you even POSE A RISK (you don't have to actually do anything) of threatening to destabilize Iraq.  The point here is that you don't get a trial.  If you even post a risk of violating this executive order, they can seize all your possessions.  This is EXACTLY what the Constitution's framers worked so hard to prevent.

Wake up, people.  I can't believe some of you do not know enough about current events so that you thought I was making these points up, and that you had not yet heard of them.  I'm especially surprised since all of you profess to guard and protect the RKBA.  In order for a democracy to function well, the electorate has to be well-informed so that they make good choices when voting.  It is your DUTY as citizens in a democracy to know these things.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

geo?  what college are you attending that makes you so well informed compared to the rest of us?

[GeoJAP]

I'm not in college.  My avatar is a U of Texas football player, but I haven't been in college for almost 10 years. 

I read many news sources (online and print media) quite a bit.  I find that many of the best sources for the most important news are these independent blogs and online news aggregators like Digg, Fark and others. 

Also, I really don't like to fault Bush so much, because I actually thought he was a terrific governor of Texas.  I loved him as governor; he is exactly what we like in a governor here.  But I don't like what his administration (and congress) has done since he has been president.  In my opinion, since he has become president, his administration has basically written corporations a blank check which has not been a positive thing for us overall.  Chipping away at the Constitution that his administration and congress (including the democrats) have done especially bothers me.  Like I said, I just call it like I see it, I don't play favorites.  I really wish we had leaders who believed in the Constitution and will work to accomplish their goals within the limits it places on government.  Those limits are there for very good reasons.

[Manedwolf]

I read many news sources (online and print media) quite a bit.  I find that many of the best sources for the most important news are these independent unverified, non-cited, unsubstantiated blogs and online news aggregators like Digg, Fark and others. 

FTFY.

[GeoJAP]

I read many news sources (online and print media) quite a bit.  I find that many of the best sources for the most important news are these independent unverified, non-cited, unsubstantiated blogs and online news aggregators like Digg, Fark and others. 

FTFY.

Excuse me?  RileyMC and I substantiated all my points.  Just because you say something over and over doesn't make it true.

Like I said, it is amazing to me that my fellow citizens will purposefully ignore and discount facts which show our government is passing laws and executive orders which are neutering the constitution piece by piece.

[Manedwolf]

I read many news sources (online and print media) quite a bit.  I find that many of the best sources for the most important news are these independent unverified, non-cited, unsubstantiated blogs and online news aggregators like Digg, Fark and others. 

FTFY.

Excuse me?  RileyMC and I substantiated all my points. 

Like I said, it is amazing to me that my fellow citizens will purposefully ignore and discount facts which show our government is passing laws and executive orders which are neutering the constitution piece by piece.

Hey, look! There's a black helicopter behind you!

Made ya look.

[GeoJAP]

Hey, look! There's a black helicopter behind you!

Made ya look.

Congrats.  I've had more intelligent conversations with my girlfriend's five year old niece.

[Manedwolf]

Ask anyone what I think of wild conspiracy theorists.

I dealt with that enough when the wild-eyed Paulistinians were here screaming that "9/11 was an inside job" on the street across where I was going to eat. I watched them embarrass my state by defending and supplying some violent "tax protesters". My patience for them is beyond exhausted.