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Author Topic: How do I trace a dead circuit?  (Read 10692 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2008, 07:28:30 PM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin on February 26, 2008, 09:31:32 AM
No, I've not dug into the main panel yet.

But, remember...

Even though the outlets in the bathrooms are dead, the GFCI in the basement is still working. That's why I think the GFCI is the culprit, something in the inner workings.

I disagree.

Go to Homeless Depot and just buy a $10 outlet tester, with a GFI test button. Plug it into the outlet in question. If everything is working, you'll see two amber lights. Push the button and the GFI should trip.

I'm betting you won't see two amber lights. I'm betting you'll see an open neutral. The power comes to your bathroom through the GFI, but the neutral doesn't return to the panel through the GFI. You have an open neutral.

Question: Are the wires to the dead outlets under the screws, or are they pushed into the little holes in the back? If they're pushed into the holes, cut 'em off, strip about 3/4" of wire, and attach to the screws. See if that helps. Often, those push-in terminals compress the wire and lose tension over the years, leaving a loose (and very unsafe) connection.

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Leatherneck

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2008, 02:30:09 AM »
I vote for open neutral too, possibly at the GFCI. Mike has an open neutral.

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Warhorse

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2008, 03:35:15 AM »
I think that Hawkmoon has nailed it!

The open neutral has to be between the GFCI and the first receptacle in line after it. Of course, figuring out which receptacle is first in line is a separate problem. Start at the output of the GFCI to find your open neutral and work out from there.

     Warhorse
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K Frame

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2008, 05:20:46 AM »
I already know that when the outlet is not working that I have an open neutral. That's evident from the readings I was getting from my multimeter where I had power to the hot, but it wasn't returning down the neutral leg.

I have an outlet tester.

But, I pulled the outlet tester out last night, stuck it in the socket, and lo and behold, the damned thing is working again!

Two amber lights.

As for back stabbed connections vs. under the screw, the wires from the main power feed to the hall bath (which feeds the other two outlets that are also affected) are under the screws.


"but the neutral doesn't return to the panel through the GFI. You have an open neutral."

Hum.....
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K Frame

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2008, 05:22:07 AM »
"Of course, figuring out which receptacle is first in line is a separate problem."

No, it's not. As I've noted in other posts it's very evident that the hall bath on the second floor is the first outlet in line from the GFCI.

The wiring configuration of the outlets makes that very clear. There are multiple wiresets in the hall bath, but only two wires, black and neutral, in the half bath and the master bath outlets. Both are end of circuit.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2008, 05:26:56 AM »
I think your idea about a flakey GFCI is still the most probable cause.

Oh, just thought of something.  Is the outlet GFCI or AFCI (arc-fault circuit interruptor)?  AFCIs can be picky critters.

Brad
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K Frame

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2008, 05:27:59 AM »
No, definitely a GFCI.
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RocketMan

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2008, 06:54:08 PM »
Refresh my rememberer.  Does a GFCI switch both hot and neutral?  If so, then the neutral contact in the GFCI is most likely toasted.

It's been a few years since I last messed with these things.  IIRC, the industrial type GFCIs for equipment protection switched both sides.  I just don't remember about the household types.  It seems they would, too, otherwise, what's the point of using them?

Ah, hell, use your tongue, Mike.  You don't need no stinkin' fancy boy tester.   laugh
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K Frame

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2008, 08:40:53 PM »
I was under the impression that even residential devices switched both sides, but I can't find anything that tells me that definitively.

What I've decided to do is this:

1. I've killed the entire circuit at the breaker for now.

2. When it warms up a bit, I'm going to check the outside power outlet for bad connections. From what I could see this evening, it appears that it goes Panel - GFCI - Exterior Outlet - Hall Bath - Other two baths. If that is the case, and the exterior outlet is the jumping off point for the power supply to the bath outlets, I could have a bad connection in that box.

3. I'm going to replace the GFCI.

4. I'm going to replace the outlet in the hall bath.

5. I'm going to properly wire all of the outlets to get rid of the back stab connections.

While I'm doing that I'll do a full suite of continuity testing, etc., to hopefully rule out any breaks in the cable.
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Leatherneck

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2008, 11:56:09 PM »
Sounds like a plan Mike. I read somewhere recently that outside receptacles go bad at twice the rate of inside ones, because of exposure to wet and corrosion.

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280plus

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2008, 02:42:48 AM »
Yup, outside outlet...
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cfabe

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2008, 07:13:26 AM »
Rather than replace the GFCI outlet without knowing for sure it's bad, you should just remove it and wire nut the wires togther (black to black, white to white). This will eliminate all doubt about the GFCI. However I do agree that the outside outlet is suspect.
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Fly320s

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2008, 03:11:30 AM »
Well.... we're waiting.

What was the outcome, Dr. Sparky?
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K Frame

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2008, 03:23:24 AM »
Every time I've had the chance to work on it it's been raining.
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Leatherneck

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2008, 12:32:50 PM »
And your point is...? grin

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grampster

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2008, 05:25:14 PM »
I'm no electrician.  Most of what you guys have been talking about mystifies me.
But...many houses built in the 70's used aluminum wiring.  I lived in a place that was wired that way and I was instructed by an electrician friend to periodically go to the main and tighten everything up because the aluminum evidently expanded and contracted and loosened up at the breaker box.   Perhaps you have a problem because of this??  Just a thought.
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K Frame

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2008, 06:37:01 PM »
Nope. No aluminum in my house. All copper.
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Desertdog

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Re: How do I trace a dead circuit?
« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2008, 08:02:08 AM »
Quote
Not a shock, but sort of what you'd expect to feel from an electric fence.
The electric fence I touched when I was about 16 years old did not sting, it zapped.

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