Osama lists his priorities

[agricola]

It seems, at least in terms of causing offence to himself, its:

1.  Cartoons.
2. Attacks on women and children.

I kid ye not:

The message says the attacks of Europeans on women and children "paled [in comparison] when you went overboard in your unbelief and... went to the extent of publishing these insulting drawings.

"This is the greatest misfortune and the most dangerous," the voice says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7306002.stm

[El Tejon]

Well, at least he has a list.  Didn't Thomas Edison say that was one of the best things a productive person could do was make a list and then run down it?

Sorry you Euros gotta go, but look at it this way at least you are helping others stay organised!

[Paddy]

Moe can't be much of a prophet if he's gotta have Osama run interference for him. 

Silence, I kill you!

http://standup.more-advanced.com/2008/01/19/my-little-brother-silence-i-kill-you/

[agricola]

Well, at least he has a list.  Didn't Thomas Edison say that was one of the best things a productive person could do was make a list and then run down it?

Sorry you Euros gotta go, but look at it this way at least you are helping others stay organised!

Hey, I can at least understand the logic behind bomb attacks as a result of percieved aggression against the "muslim world", but I refuse to understand bomb attacks as the result of Daffy Duck.

[Manedwolf]

*~@:~{>

(ASCII version of the cartoon) 

[De Selby]

He does this to try and convince more Muslims that this whole conflict is about destroying Islam, and not about terrorism or interests.

Of course, there are throngs of people who are more than happy to aid Osama in his propaganda mission by spouting tasteless and offensive insults against Islam in response. 

The smart thing would be to say "we condemn these cartoons too-they have nothing to do with why we are after Osama bin Laden."  But you can't count on the smart thing being done by any number of people over the number one.

[Manedwolf]

Like hell I'd condemn the cartoons. Some were just stupid, some were hilarious.

And they are ALL protected by the First Amendment within the US, and by numerous other enlightened nations' speech rights.

The fact that the extremists don't have "freedom of speech" in their mental toolbox, and behave like violent children throwing a tantrum, breaking, burning, destroying and killing over a cartoon is their problem.

Only thing I condemn is their REACTION to a cartoon. I notice that SS mentions condemning the cartoons, not condemning the reaction. As usual.

Because that's exactly what CAIR did.

[De Selby]

And they are ALL protected by the First Amendment within the US, and by numerous other enlightened nations' speech rights.

Holocaust denial is protected by the first amendment, along with a number of other statements that are totally without merit and worthy of condemnation.

The "but but free speech!" claim has no bearing on the point I made.  Free speech means you have the freedom to condemn offensive and disgusting insults aimed at other people's religions too.  That you choose not to condemn such things even where they are clearly offensive simply demonstrates your beliefs as to respect for other religions-you don't have it.

[Manedwolf]

If something was offensive to me, I would ignore it. I would change the channel. If it kept getting in my face, I would say something.

I would NOT go killing people, overturning vehicles, breaking windows, blowing up stuff, shooting guns in the air, burning embassies, and making threats of violence.

Anyone who does that is part of an immature culture that needs to grow the hell up. Nobody has a right to not be offended.

"Mo-bombhead" the cartoon is a silly cartoon. Deal with it. Don't look at it if you don't like it. But the more you throw a fit, the more people will want to republish it, wear it on tshirts, make it into graffiti tags... all of which they've done. As a REACTION to the juvenile idiocy of the violent reactions.

[Dntsycnt]

Holocaust denial is protected by the first amendment, along with a number of other statements that are totally without merit and worthy of condemnation.

The "but but free speech!" claim has no bearing on the point I made.  Free speech means you have the freedom to condemn offensive and disgusting insults aimed at other people's religions too.  That you choose not to condemn such things even where they are clearly offensive simply demonstrates your beliefs as to respect for other religions-you don't have it.

I condemn your offensive assumption that religion inherently deserves respect simply for being religion.

(Did I do that about right?)

[De Selby]

Holocaust denial is protected by the first amendment, along with a number of other statements that are totally without merit and worthy of condemnation.

The "but but free speech!" claim has no bearing on the point I made.  Free speech means you have the freedom to condemn offensive and disgusting insults aimed at other people's religions too.  That you choose not to condemn such things even where they are clearly offensive simply demonstrates your beliefs as to respect for other religions-you don't have it.

I condemn your offensive assumption that religion inherently deserves respect simply for being religion.

(Did I do that about right?)

No-you left out the facade of believability.

[De Selby]

If something was offensive to me, I would ignore it. I would change the channel. If it kept getting in my face, I would say something.

I would NOT go killing people, overturning vehicles, breaking windows, blowing up stuff, shooting guns in the air, burning embassies, and making threats of violence.

Yes, I realize you would not do that-and neither would I.  Nor do I.

Anyone who does that is part of an immature culture that needs to grow the hell up. Nobody has a right to not be offended.

"Mo-bombhead" the cartoon is a silly cartoon. Deal with it. Don't look at it if you don't like it. But the more you throw a fit, the more people will want to republish it, wear it on tshirts, make it into graffiti tags... all of which they've done. As a REACTION to the juvenile idiocy of the violent reactions.

Yeah-except that you're insulting the people who didn't do a single bad thing to you just to get at the guys like Osama. 

See, the difference between us on this point is this:  I didn't do or participate in any way in the activity you are trying to get everyone to condemn. 

You did exactly the offensive thing in question here.  The fact that some people half way around the world are behaving badly in no way excuses you from your responsibility for your own statements here, right now.  Yet it looks like you are citing the bad things that Osama does as justification for your own tasteless insults towards my religion.

In America, we're supposed to answer for what we do individually.  So how come you start talking about what other people are doing when called on your own offensive statements?

[grampster]

Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

Some folks need to understand that life is a much more pleasing experience if one does not walk around all day every day looking to be offended.  Satire, irony and yes, just plain old offensiveness are part of the spice of life.  With freedom comes danger as well.  But danger is a little different from absolute death being a result of freedom of speech.

Whenever I hear or see things that I disagree with, I tend to ignore them.  When those things begin to have a deleterious effect on my ability or the ability of my family and friends to have other than a peaceful existence, then I will act in ways other than ignoring them.

In the case of some religious extremists that go around killing, torturing, beheading, bombing, maiming ad infinitum in the name of their religion, I think at the very least, human nature is going to recoil from that behavior.  Ergo: some insults will get tossed around.  The difference between Them and Us is that insults don't trigger murderous behavior in Us.  And even more importantly, Us will decry the bad behavior of those who may have been associated with whatever group Us belong to.

To put it more bluntly, mainstream Islam needs to rise up and expel both by word and deed those who use slaughter and mayhem in the name of Islam, just like other religions have done in the past as well as in the here and now.  Many Muslims have done just that!!  No one is without guilt (or sin) regarding bad behavior in the name of religion.  But at the same time, one should expect human behavior from humans.  It would seem to me that Islam in general should decry the behavior of Wahhabi sect rather than decrying the natural behavior of those who are accustomed to having the freedom of speech, association etc etc.

SS, perhaps you'd get a bit more respect for your opinion around here if you'd quit whining about silly insults and paid more attention to decrying the murder and calls for murder by a sect of your religion that (I hope) you don't belong to and hates most other Muslims as well.

[Paddy]

That Osama and his merry band of radical Islamists are 'offended' by these cartoons to the point they will kill indiscriminately is their problem, not the western world's.   Islam needs to clean up its own house.  It isn't the responsibility of the rest of the world to see to it that these throwbacks aren't 'offended'.

[HankB]

Why should WE in the west figuratively go around walking on eggshells lest we offend some islamofascist eight countries away?

Who the <expletive> do they think they are, to deterimine what we can and can't publish in our own countries?

And most of the riots took place in their own back yards!

There's an old saying "don't cr@p where you eat" . . . but the islamofascists do - routinely.

Maybe we should publish MORE cartoons, in the hope that they'll eliminate themselves . . . or maybe the peace-loving Moslem majority we keep hearing about will finally tire of the violent, murder-prone extremists and stop tolerating them.

[De Selby]

SS, perhaps you'd get a bit more respect for your opinion around here if you'd quit whining about silly insults and paid more attention to decrying the murder and calls for murder by a sect of your religion that (I hope) you don't belong to and hates most other Muslims as well.

Being that I don't run in the circles of terrorists out there, it's hard to say anything to them about it.  I hold individuals responsible for their actions, not vague masses of people to be addressed by general statements on a forum.

The insults and discrimination are happening right here in this thread.  Of course it gets my attention-that's what it's designed to do, let Muslims know that people don't respect their religion and wish to insult it.  So I repeat my comment: If you respect religions, you should do so regardless of what Osama Bin Laden is doing. 

Pointing the finger at Osama to justify your own tasteless behavior is a cop-out. 

[De Selby]

That Osama and his merry band of radical Islamists are 'offended' by these cartoons to the point they will kill indiscriminately is their problem, not the western world's.   Islam needs to clean up its own house.  It isn't the responsibility of the rest of the world to see to it that these throwbacks aren't 'offended'.

I guess the rest of us Muslims who aren't "throwbacks" just don't matter, right? All commentary on Islam should be geared towards upsetting extremists, and no Muslim has any right to say anything about it, even if what is being said is grossly offensive to all other Muslims at the same time?

It is your responsibility to be decent.  I consider respect for other people's religions to be a pillar of decency.  But maybe you don't-I'd like to hear your opinion on this.

[Manedwolf]

I guess the rest of us Muslims who aren't "throwbacks" just don't matter, right?

If they throw a fit and demand any sort of punishment, they're a throwback.

If they declare that countries should censor the cartoons, they're a throwback.

Deal with it. Freedom of speech is. And you don't have a right to not be offended.

[Glock Glockler]

If you respect religions, you should do so regardless of what Osama Bin Laden is doing

Why, necessarily, should we respect a religion?

[Paddy]

I guess the rest of us Muslims who aren't "throwbacks" just don't matter, right? All commentary on Islam should be geared towards upsetting extremists, and no Muslim has any right to say anything about it, even if what is being said is grossly offensive to all other Muslims at the same time?

It is your responsibility to be decent.  I consider respect for other people's religions to be a pillar of decency.  But maybe you don't-I'd like to hear your opinion on this.

That you rush to the defense of Islam as 'interpreted' and practiced by OBL indicates you agree with him.  As a Christian, I condemn Fred Phelps activities as completely un- and anti-Christian. IOW, I do not accept that Phelps is a Christian.  Why aren't you, as a Muslim, doing the same with OBL?

[MechAg94]

The insults and discrimination are happening right here in this thread.  Of course it gets my attention-that's what it's designed to do, let Muslims know that people don't respect their religion and wish to insult it.  So I repeat my comment: If you respect religions, you should do so regardless of what Osama Bin Laden is doing. 

Yep, and when the Roman Catholic Church or the Southern Baptist Convention does something foolish, people talk crap about Christians and throw out insults of one type or another.  I don't get all broken up about it and complain about discrimination.  It happens.  Get over it.  As long as some Muslims are out there trying to kill people in the name of your God, it is going to happen.  I would expect it myself if some group tried to organize the another Crusade.

[AmbulanceDriver]

I don't remember the exact details, but some "artist" made some *VERY* graphic and disturbing "art" that was really nasty towards Christians.  Like Christ covered in feces, or something like that.  As a Christian, I found it hugely offensive.  But you didn't see me (or the vast majority of other Christians) calling for this artists' death or anything like that.  Other "artists" have done similar.  Yet when Mohammed is depicted in an offensive manner, the Muslim extremists attack embassies, riot, threaten murder, etc....

And yeah, there were probably a few Christian extremists that wanted to do something bad to the artist.  But like the Fred Phelps gang, they aren't taken seriously by "mainstream" Christians.  They're considered outcasts, and the "mainstream" Christians don't want anything to do with them.  But that doesn't seem to be the case with "mainstream" Muslims. 

[De Selby]

The insults and discrimination are happening right here in this thread.  Of course it gets my attention-that's what it's designed to do, let Muslims know that people don't respect their religion and wish to insult it.  So I repeat my comment: If you respect religions, you should do so regardless of what Osama Bin Laden is doing. 

Yep, and when the Roman Catholic Church or the Southern Baptist Convention does something foolish, people talk crap about Christians and throw out insults of one type or another.  I don't get all broken up about it and complain about discrimination.  It happens.  Get over it.  As long as some Muslims are out there trying to kill people in the name of your God, it is going to happen.  I would expect it myself if some group tried to organize the another Crusade.

I don't get all broken up about it either-but I do recognize that it is wrong and needlessly disrespectful.  You show me people insulting Christianity in this same way, and I'll show you a group of people who are rightly condemning those insults.  Everyone who condemned the "piss Christ" insult and who condemns the screeds against Christianity by guys like Hitchens and Dawkins is right to do it.

There are lots of bad reactions that are predictable-in some towns, if a black man rapes a white woman, we can all expect that racists will flare up about it and start targeting blacks, for example.  But that doesn't make it right.

Sure, it's entirely preditcable that because Bin Laden cites religion to justify his crimes, people will insult the religion...for the same reason.  That doesn't make it right, and instead of writing it off, you should take responsibility for your own words by not participating in it.  That is my point here, not that it's somehow amazing or shocking that it happens. 

People respond to crimes in ways that are immoral and disrespectful sometimes; that is natural, but it's not right, and I'm simply calling a spade a spade.

[De Selby]

I don't remember the exact details, but some "artist" made some *VERY* graphic and disturbing "art" that was really nasty towards Christians.  Like Christ covered in feces, or something like that.  As a Christian, I found it hugely offensive.  But you didn't see me (or the vast majority of other Christians) calling for this artists' death or anything like that.  Other "artists" have done similar.  Yet when Mohammed is depicted in an offensive manner, the Muslim extremists attack embassies, riot, threaten murder, etc....

And yeah, there were probably a few Christian extremists that wanted to do something bad to the artist.  But like the Fred Phelps gang, they aren't taken seriously by "mainstream" Christians.  They're considered outcasts, and the "mainstream" Christians don't want anything to do with them.  But that doesn't seem to be the case with "mainstream" Muslims. 

No, but you do see Christians condemning the painting as offensive and calling on people not to show it or to support the artist-which is what I'm doing here in response to a series of equally offensive cartoons aimed at Muslims.

The fact that other people are doing bad things doesn't make insulting someone's religion okay.  Even if there were tons of Christian terrorists in the US, that would not make graphic insults aimed at every Christian a good thing. 

Hold the terrorists responsible for what they do, and treat people who do not engage in terrorism (even if they're Muslim) with the respect they deserve.  How does that sound for a principle?

[De Selby]

I guess the rest of us Muslims who aren't "throwbacks" just don't matter, right? All commentary on Islam should be geared towards upsetting extremists, and no Muslim has any right to say anything about it, even if what is being said is grossly offensive to all other Muslims at the same time?

It is your responsibility to be decent.  I consider respect for other people's religions to be a pillar of decency.  But maybe you don't-I'd like to hear your opinion on this.

That you rush to the defense of Islam as 'interpreted' and practiced by OBL indicates you agree with him.  As a Christian, I condemn Fred Phelps activities as completely un- and anti-Christian. IOW, I do not accept that Phelps is a Christian.  Why aren't you, as a Muslim, doing the same with OBL?

I have not once defended Osama's "interpretation" (he doesn't really have one-he's not a theologian)-but I don't think you know what OBL teaches in terms of religion anyway, so it's hard to imagine how you could conclude this about my statements here.