Author Topic: Decision making America and Fighting America  (Read 7269 times)

Blakenzy

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Decision making America and Fighting America
« on: April 16, 2008, 08:13:57 PM »
You know, congresscritters seem to make a habit of taking war a little lightly, especially when pondering on certain consequences such as loss of American lives. I say this because I believe that sadly, the core of fighting men and women and their families seem to be entirely lacking a real representation when it comes to whom we fight or why we choose to fight them.

I think that IDEALLY, only congressmen, or "congress people" to be P.C. Wink , with next of kin serving as enlisted men should be able to plead and act in favor of armed conflict. Congressmen who do not have close relatives in the front lines of our armed forces should be excluded from war mongering. They should retain their ability to veto a war proposition, but lose the ability to vote in favor of declaring war.

It would appear to be the most effective preemptive barrier to a war we don't need or shouldn't be fighting in the first place. Granted, it's our job as voters to make sure the people on Capitol Hill are the right ones. Those who will put the interest of the Country ahead of their own specific and private political/economic agendas, and not declare widespread war as a de facto response to every perceived threat abroad. But other than a nationwide referendum preceding every major war operation, the only way to truly make sure that the decision makers will be included among those who will have to pick up the Bill*, is by making sure that they are exposed to the same hardships as that sector of society from which the boots will be taken to be put on the faraway ground.
*by "Bill" I mean caskets

Insuring that the people who make the decisions that lead us to war will take into consideration the same consequences as those who will be over there, in body or in spirit, will be a big step towards making the US a little more in tune with what a America should be like.

What do you think?
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2008, 08:46:53 PM »
I think that I expect my representative to have the ability to vote on all the issues that concern the nation, that's their job. 

Having served or having a relative serving gives you a particular viewpoint but no particular special knowledge of geo-political or strategic concerns.

The "need special qualifications to be allowed a voice" concept quickly leads to the end of representative democracy.
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HankB

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2008, 03:56:23 AM »
Hmmm . . . perhaps if veterans, or people with family in the military, were the only ones allowed to hold office, wars might be shorter.

For example, when resistance was met in Fallujah, perhaps an order to "Level it!" would go out without too much concern about political correctness or objections from congresscritters with family in harm's way.

Ultimately, we might even end up with a system that starts to resemble the one in Heinlein's Starship Troopers.
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2008, 04:12:22 AM »
I think that only congressmen who have driven an 18 wheeler should be allowed to make laws concerning the transportation industry.
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roo_ster

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2008, 04:54:21 AM »
I think that IDEALLY, only congressmen, or "congress people" to be P.C. Wink , with next of kin serving as enlisted men should be able to plead and act in favor of armed conflict. Congressmen who do not have close relatives in the front lines of our armed forces should be excluded from war mongering.

...

What do you think?

I think we live in a representative republic and that such a requirement is hare-brained.

(Apologies due the hares.)
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roo_ster

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grampster

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2008, 05:09:52 AM »
Perhaps decisions made by our elected officials might be more trustworthy or efficacious if "The People" paid more attention to WHY they are voting for a particular candidate, AFTER actually finding out what that candidate really stands for.  (Clue-What does their party stand for, not what does the candidate say)

We are watching a presidential debate right now that if gaffe's were dollars, the national debt would be 0.  In the past if candidates lied, obfuscated and weazled  to the extent that we are seeing now, they'd've been long gone. 

Yeah, candidates have lied about promises.  But, we've never seen what we're seeing now; lying about what they've done or not done, said or not said, thought or not thought or associated with the whom they have associated.
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charby

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2008, 05:25:03 AM »
only representatives that own EBRs can create and vote on gun control bills.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2008, 08:41:38 AM »
Quote
Ultimately, we might even end up with a system that starts to resemble the one in Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

And that really is not such a good idea. Why?

Because we [the West] an individualist society, whereas the military by its nature is a non-individualist system. Making it the exclusive privilege of former drill sergreants and army officers to run a society that does NOT run on the same operating principles as the military is bound to mess stuff up.
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Finch

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2008, 10:14:42 AM »
Quote
I think that I expect my representative to have the ability to vote on all the issues that concern the nation, that's their job.

Eh. I expect my representative to take my concerns to the Federal Government, to represent me. Not the entire nation.

Quote
Granted, it's our job as voters to make sure the people on Capitol Hill are the right ones.

You have to remember that 9 out of 10 people in this country think that we are a Democratic style of government. Hell, I have heard all three of the major presidential candidates call our country a Democracy. Nobody cares anymore. If they did, we wouldn't Have a McCain, Obama, Hillary race.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2008, 10:30:49 AM »
What do you think?
I think it's another in a long line of hare-brained anti-war schemes.  The number of congressmen with children in the service will probably always be smaller than the number without.  Under your proposal it would be nigh impossible to get a majority vote in favor of war no matter how necessary the war might be. 

I think your plan would make it impossible to defend the nation.  That's your goal, right?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2008, 11:21:30 AM »
HTG, you think someone would vote against war when a clear and present threat was imminent?
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HankB

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2008, 11:38:38 AM »
HTG, you think someone would vote against war when a clear and present threat was imminent?
There was at least one vote against declaring war on Japan by a member of the U.S. House of Representatives on December 8, 1941. (Google "Jeanette Rankin")
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2008, 11:58:08 AM »
HTG, you think someone would vote against war when a clear and present threat was imminent?
I don't know the exact number, but I bet there are less than a dozen current members of Congress with a child in the military.  Under Blakenzy's plan, that means that less than 12 would be eligible to vote 'yay' on a war resolution.  The other 500+ congressmen could only vote 'nay'. 

How do you think that kind of vote will turn out?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2008, 12:00:40 PM »
HTG, you think someone would vote against war when a clear and present threat was imminent?
There was at least one vote against declaring war on Japan by a member of the U.S. House of Representatives on December 8, 1941. (Google "Jeanette Rankin")

Well, a point.

What I mean is, if America were attacked, any Congress, even made out entirely of Democrat war veterans, would vote to authorize the defense of the nation (though there might be dissent, but it's not a healthy country if there's no dissent).

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Perd Hapley

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2008, 12:13:28 PM »
Quote
I think that I expect my representative to have the ability to vote on all the issues that concern the nation, that's their job.

Eh. I expect my representative to take my concerns to the Federal Government, to represent me. Not the entire nation.  


Response does not relate to comment cited.  Please clarify.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2008, 06:59:56 PM »
Quote
I think that I expect my representative to have the ability to vote on all the issues that concern the nation, that's their job.

Eh. I expect my representative to take my concerns to the Federal Government, to represent me. Not the entire nation.  


Response does not relate to comment cited.  Please clarify.

Thank you fistful.  Wow you can be polite.  grin
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2008, 08:49:55 PM »
Thank you fistful.  Wow you can be polite.  grin 


OK, another compliment.  Who are you people, and what have you done with my APS brow-beaters friends? 
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roo_ster

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2008, 05:28:44 AM »
The brow-beaters are off on vacation off the coast of Somalia, indulging in hard liquors, bawdy acts, lewd behaviors, and making the sea lanes safe for nubile French tourists.

They'll be back next week.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2008, 06:03:11 AM »
The brow-beaters are off on vacation off the coast of Somalia, indulging in hard liquors, bawdy acts, lewd behaviors, and making the sea lanes safe for nubile French tourists.

They'll be back next week.
What?!  They left without me!  Those bastiches!

Perd Hapley

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2008, 01:40:28 PM »
Protecting the nubiles, eh?  So they're using the others for bait? 
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rocinante

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2008, 05:36:37 AM »
I remember there was a lot of discussion about Johnson and Nixon being more aggressive because they had daughters and not sons.


Archie

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2008, 07:09:31 AM »
Let's see... limiting those who can support armed conflict to those who have close relatives on active duty.

So, you want to make decisions regarding national defense based on emotion, and limit that emotion to protecting one's own family?  Do you really think emotional responses are the best way to run a country?

How about limiting the members of Congress who can vote on a tax increase to those who have an income within the middle thirty percent of Americans AND actually pay income (and other) taxes?

As mentioned, we should limit the members of Congress who can vote on gun control bills to those who own more than 'x' number of firearms with a minimum of semi-automatic pistols with magazine capacities over 12 rounds and at least one semi-automatic rifle with a plastic stock.

Perhaps we should redirect our efforts at getting reasonable and intelligent, pro American members elected to the House and Senate?  That is already hard enough.
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taurusowner

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2008, 07:40:50 PM »
Quote
So, you want to make decisions regarding national defense based on emotion, and limit that emotion to protecting one's own family?  Do you really think emotional responses are the best way to run a country?

That basically sums it up.

seeker_two

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2008, 01:20:16 AM »
only representatives that own EBRs can create and vote on gun control bills.



Kinda like they're doing in Chicago?.... (see the M4 thread)....
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wideym

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Re: Decision making America and Fighting America
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2008, 06:32:43 AM »
The idea of only congress members who currently have children in the military being able to vote for a war is so utterly idiotic.  How about if we take it a few steps further, how about only veterns can run for office, or how about only combat veterns could run, or only decorated combat veterns, like Kerry? 

You are not un-American for not having served in the military, it's not for everybody.  I also would not approve of any parent who would pressure their child to serve only to heighten their own political agenda.

Although I loved Starship Troopers and expecially their form of goverment, remember it was always vollentary and hard earned.