Author Topic: Question for REAL WWII history buffs (Read 7035 times)

telewinz · « **on:** August 16, 2005, 01:37:06 PM »

What World War II major commander won every battle throughout WWII regardless of whether he was an underdog, engaged enemy forces in an even contest or had superior forces. Only ONE major commander meets this criteria.

Preacherman · « **Reply #1 on:** August 16, 2005, 03:14:42 PM »

I think Patton would meet that criterion.

telewinz · « **Reply #2 on:** August 17, 2005, 10:27:54 AM »

Nimitz

When was Patton EVER an underdog?

charby · « **Reply #3 on:** August 17, 2005, 10:42:05 AM »

How about FDR he was commander in chief.

Moondoggie · « **Reply #4 on:** August 17, 2005, 01:21:21 PM »

Weeelll....

It WASN'T MacArthur!!!!!

Patton also comes first to mind. He was considered an underdog in his first engagement vs. Rommel in N. Africa. Without using a reference I'm guessing it was called the 2nd Battle of Kaserene Pass...we lost the 1st one when another American General was in command.

Patton was a master of manuever and combined arms strategy. I don't think anybody else has been his equal.

Preacherman · « **Reply #5 on:** August 17, 2005, 02:24:38 PM »

Telewinz, I agree that Nimitz never "lost", but he was never a "major commander" either! Like Eisenhower in Europe, he was a theater commander: he never led troops in combat personally, or faced an opposing general personally. Thus, I don't know that your answer is clear, given the way you phrased the question. What say you?

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #6 on:** August 17, 2005, 02:51:36 PM »

I thought Patton was a general commander. Yuk, yuk.

jefnvk · « **Reply #7 on:** August 17, 2005, 03:14:49 PM »

Is it possible it was a commander from another country? Maybe that Russian whose name I can't remember right now? Think he might have been a pudgy, balding guy, maybe not?

EDIT: Zhukov?

K Frame · « **Reply #8 on:** August 17, 2005, 06:24:20 PM »

Nimitz?

No. In addition to what Preacherman said, Nimitz was also in command during some rather nasty losses to the Japanese during the battle for Guadalcanal.

For example, the battle of Savo Island, in which an American-Australian cruiser force was virtually obliterated.

telewinz · « **Reply #9 on:** August 17, 2005, 10:41:59 PM »

We didn't lose the battle for Guadalcanal, we won it with Nimitz. Nimitz by all accounts WAS a "Major" Commander, he had 5 stars to prove it. Patton was NEVER an underdog at the Kasserine Pass or any other engagement he commanded. FDR as Commander in Chief (and Marshall) lost the Philippines and a few islands (Wake, Guam). Zhukov had several set backs including the German offensive of '42.

charby · « **Reply #10 on:** August 18, 2005, 08:42:59 AM »

Montgomery?

Preacherman · « **Reply #11 on:** August 18, 2005, 11:08:43 AM »

No, Montgomery has several "losses" on his record. He commanded a division in France in 1940, when the German blitzkrieg drove the English forces back across the Channel and defeated France. His command of all ground forces for the D-day invasion is highly questionable, and several times his planned attacks were thrown back in disarray by superior German defences and troops. I don't think he'd qualify at all.

Telewinz, respectfully, I just don't see how Nimitz qualifies. As I said, he never led troops or ships in combat - he was a theater commander. As such, he has a share in both victories and defeats, but does not qualify as the "commander" in either situation. There were always other commanders on or near the scene who were in direct tactical control, and on whose shoulders, therefore, rests the ultimate responsibility for results. Nimitz might relieve them for poor performance (e.g. Ghormley) or reward them for good performance (e.g. Halsey's fourth star), but Nimitz himself could not take the credit or the blame for what they did. The same would apply to Eisenhower in Europe.

Patton, on the other hand, never experienced a defeat while in command of troops. I still think he fits your criteria as originally stated.

K Frame · « **Reply #12 on:** August 18, 2005, 11:47:33 AM »

Telewinz,

Guadalcanal was a CAMPAIGN, comprising numerous air, land, and naval battles that are discretely identified and recorded, over a period of six months. It was not an individual battle.

As I specifically noted, the battle of Savo Island was a serious American defeat during the Guadalcanal Campaign.

Given that you said a commander who won every battle, Nimitz is immediately disqualified as a result of the American defeat at Savo Island.

I agree, Preacherman, Nimitz doesn't qualify.

In that regard, neither does Adm. Charles Lockwood, who directed the ONLY successful submarine campaign every conducted in warfare.

As for Montgomery, don't forget that Operations Goodwood and Market Garden (his personal creation) were monumental failures.

Myself · « **Reply #13 on:** August 18, 2005, 12:18:46 PM »

Bradley

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #14 on:** August 18, 2005, 02:05:02 PM »

Let's talk about why Nimitz is really disqualified.

1. Funny name, Chester Nimitz.

2. Is there a movie called Nimitz or about Nimitz? I don't think so.

3. Wasn't he a squid anyway?

telewinz · « **Reply #15 on:** August 18, 2005, 03:58:04 PM »

Historians generally agreed about Nimitz.

K Frame · « **Reply #16 on:** August 18, 2005, 08:12:03 PM »

"Historians generally agreed about Nimitz."

Citations as to who these historians are?

"Is there a movie called Nimitz or about Nimitz?"

No, there isn't. But, unlike many other great commanders, he wasn't a self-aggrandizing pompous ass, never wrote his biography, and never really spoke much about his role during the war. As far as I know, there isn't a movie about Eisenhower or Bradley, either. There was one about Halsey, starring James Cagney (The Gallant Hours), but it was but a brief 5-week slice of Halsey's early war career.

And since when does it take a Hollyweird movie to convey greatness onto a person?

"Wasn't he a squid..."

You mean US Navy? Yes, he was a Naval Academy Graduate. Again, so? Without the Navy there wouldn't have been a victory in the Pacific.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #17 on:** August 19, 2005, 03:38:13 AM »

Mike, come on. You take me so seriously, it's hilarious. What, are you a squid, too?

K Frame · « **Reply #18 on:** August 19, 2005, 04:54:07 AM »

I figured you were Army.

I've seen comments exactly like yours made in absolute seriousness by members of every branch about other branches.

Don't forget, the Army and Air Force after WW II tried very very hard to reduce the Navy and Marine Corps to a garbage scow and 2 lance corporals.

Had it not been for men such as John Stennis and Carl Vinson the US ability to respond to the invasion of South Korea would have been virtually non existent.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #19 on:** August 19, 2005, 08:36:13 AM »

I was just kidding about the squid remark, but still, how can one be a great military commander with a funny name like Nimitz? And if he was anybody worth paying attention to, they'd make a movie about him. Everybody surely acknowledges that.

Moondoggie · « **Reply #20 on:** August 19, 2005, 02:08:03 PM »

Arleigh Burke also saved Naval Aviation from being scarfed-up by Curtis LeMay during the reorganization bloodletting following WWII. Congress protected the Marine Corps in the National Security Act of 1947, stipulating that "The United States Marine Corps shall consist of 3 combat divisions and 3 combat air wings".

Lemay twisted the arm of the SecNav to get Burke's name scratched from the admiral's promotion list, but the Naval Attache to the White House let Pres Truman know what the deal was and Truman added Burke's name back onto the list before it went to the Senate for confirmation.

NIMITZ? Huh?

?? "Where is Task Force 34? The world wonders?"

I retired from the Marines in '99 as an E9. I saw beltway budget battles, and let me tell you, the folks in the headsheds of all branches of the service spend a significant portion of their time/effort protecting their turf/budget. The infighting for $ is intense.

crt360 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 19, 2005, 02:41:38 PM »

Nimitz does have a pretty neat musuem. If you ever find yourself lost in the hill country west of Austin, tool around until you get to Fredericksburg and check it out. I think they've probably added a bunch of stuff since I was last there.

K Frame · « **Reply #22 on:** August 19, 2005, 02:52:49 PM »

"NIMITZ?

?? "Where is Task Force 34? The world wonders?"

Doggie, not sure exactly what you mean by that...

Do you know the story behind that message?

"but still, how can one be a great military commander with a funny name like Nimitz?"

I'm sure the Carthenigians thought Publius Cornelius Scipio was a funny name, too. Until he wiped Carthage and its army pretty much off the face of the map.

Here's the SINGLE best reason why Nimitz should be considered great, fistful...

The Battle of Midway.

Despite King's insistence that American carriers should not be committed beyond Hawaii because of the Naval Staff's insistence that the Japanese were going to strike at either Hawaii or the West Coast, Nimitz rejected that assessment, choosing to believe his subordinates and the information that they had compiled.

Armed with that information, Nimitz acted decisively and sent American carriers to wait for the Japanese at Midway, and then he let his commanders in the field handle the battle.

A single decision, based on intelligence and a gut feeling, and Nimitz put into motion what is perhaps the single most important Naval victory every won by the United States.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #23 on:** August 20, 2005, 02:42:20 AM »

Yeah, right. I'll believe all that stuff when they put it in the movies and Johnny Horton writes a song about it. Remember the song about the Bismarck? So catchy. Anyway, the man still has a funny name. Maybe they can change it to something better for the movie. How about Jack "Redbeard" Bolden? Sounds cool, doesn't it? And give him a love interest. Some Chinese girl he met before the war, and now he has to save her from the Nips.

Anyhoo.

K Frame · « **Reply #24 on:** August 20, 2005, 04:25:48 AM »

You know, Fistful, if your requirement for greatness is having a movie filmed about the person, that must mean that Adolf Hitler was one of the world's truly great people. How many movies have been made about him?

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Author Topic: Question for REAL WWII history buffs (Read 7035 times)