Author Topic: wonder what they do with paul terminal?  (Read 7287 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« on: May 02, 2008, 11:43:15 AM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/01/AR2008050103224.html?nav=hcmodule

McCain's Birth Abroad Stirs Legal Debate
His Eligibility for Presidency Is Questioned

Sen. John McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee, was born on a U.S. military base in the Panama Canal Zone, which was then under U.S. jurisdiction. (By Chris Gardner -- Getty Images)

The Senate has unanimously declared John McCain a natural-born citizen, eligible to be president of the United States.

That is the good news for the presumptive Republican nominee, who was born nearly 72 years ago in a military hospital in the Panama Canal Zone, then under U.S. jurisdiction. The bad news is that the nonbinding Senate resolution passed Wednesday night is simply an opinion that has little bearing on an arcane constitutional debate that has preoccupied legal scholars for many weeks.

Article II of the Constitution states that "no person except a natural born citizen . . . shall be eligible to the office of president." The problem is that the Founding Fathers never defined exactly what they meant by "natural born citizen," and the matter has never been fully tested in court. At least three pending cases are challenging McCain's right to be sworn in as president.

Jurists on both sides of the political divide, consulted by the McCain campaign, insist that the issue is clear-cut. They argue that McCain is a natural-born citizen because the United States held sovereignty over the Panama Canal Zone at the time of his birth, on Aug. 29, 1936; because he was born on a U.S. military base; and because his parents were U.S. citizens.

But Sarah H. Duggin, an associate law professor at Catholic University who has studied the "natural born" issue in detail, said the question is "not so simple." While she said McCain would probably prevail in a determined legal challenge to his eligibility to be president, she added that the matter can be fully resolved only by a constitutional amendment or a Supreme Court decision.

"The Constitution is ambiguous," Duggin said. "The McCain side has some really good arguments, but ultimately there has never been any real resolution of this issue. Congress cannot legislatively change the meaning of the Constitution."

Senators sympathetic to McCain's position, including Democrats Claire McCaskill (Mo.) and Patrick J. Leahy (Vt.), dropped an earlier attempt to quell the eligibility controversy with legislation. McCaskill acknowledged in an interview that there is "no way" to completely resolve the question short of a constitutional amendment, a cumbersome process which could not be concluded before November.

She described the nonbinding resolution, which she sponsored, as "the quickest, clearest and most efficient" way for the Senate to send a message to the courts that McCain has the right to be president.

One person who disagrees with that premise is New Hampshire resident Fred Hollander, who has filed a suit in U.S. District Court claiming that the Republican candidate is "not a natural born citizen." In an attempt to prove his argument, the 49-year-old computer programmer filed a subpoena last month seeking McCain's birth certificate.

The Department of Homeland Security, which oversees citizenship services, declined to hand over copies of the document, saying the subpoena was improperly served.

In his autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain writes that he was born "in the Canal Zone" at the U.S. Naval Air Station in Coco Solo, which was under the command of his grandfather, John S. McCain Sr. The senator's father, John S. McCain Jr., was an executive officer on a submarine, also based in Coco Solo. His mother, Roberta McCain, now 96, has vivid memories of lying in bed listening to raucous celebrations of her son's birth from the nearby officers' club.

The birth was announced two days later in the English-language Panamanian American newspaper. A senior official of the McCain campaign showed a reporter a copy of the senator's birth certificate issued by Canal Zone health authorities, recording his birth in the Coco Solo "family hospital."


It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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The Annoyed Man

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2008, 12:40:33 PM »
Why does it have to be 'tested in court' if the Senate has already unanimously agreed he's a natural born citizen and eligible to be POTUS?   After all the Senate actually makes law, courts only interpret law.  I'd say the Senate's determination is pretty clear.  And so would any other reasonable man.

41magsnub

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2008, 12:42:32 PM »
And the whole thing is stupid anyway..  he is a military brat.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2008, 12:53:12 PM »
Why does it have to be 'tested in court' if the Senate has already unanimously agreed he's a natural born citizen and eligible to be POTUS?   After all the Senate actually makes law, courts only interpret law.  I'd say the Senate's determination is pretty clear.  And so would any other reasonable man.
Citizenship is defined in the constitution, not by the senate, and the supreme court has final say on what they constitution says.  I don't believe the senate has authority to decide who is a citizen and who isn't. 

That said, I think the decision the senate made is obviously the correct one.  I can't imagine the courts coming up with a different answer.  The whole thing is much ado about nothing.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2008, 12:59:48 PM »
Not every phrase in the Constitution has been 'interpreted' by the Supreme Court, HTG.  Does that mean it's  all invalid until SCOTUS rules?  Including your 2nd Amendment rights?

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2008, 01:00:24 PM »
This was brought up a while ago. Similar stupid issues were brought to court re: Cheney as veep. Due to constitutional requirements being that the pair be from different states, some democrat wanted to get Cheney recognized as a Texas resident, and thus disqualify him (or, with a psychotic judge, get the election overturned). Was a stupid case, and courts will willingly say "screw you" to people bringing such cases.

Reporter's getting his hopes up. Or just lazy as hell. 

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2008, 01:13:27 PM »
Not every phrase in the Constitution has been 'interpreted' by the Supreme Court, HTG.  Does that mean it's  all invalid until SCOTUS rules?  Including your 2nd Amendment rights?
I'm not sayin' the entire constitution needs to be interpreted by the court.  The issue is that some dolts out there seem to think that this particular matter needs to be interpreted.  Well, if we're gonna interpret it, let's at least interpret it the right way.  That means Supreme Court, not Senate.

Fly320s

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2008, 02:21:02 PM »
Why does it have to be 'tested in court' if the Senate has already unanimously agreed he's a natural born citizen and eligible to be POTUS? 
It was an opinion vote.  All that was accomplished was that 100% of the senators who voted had the opinion that McCain is a natural-born citizen.

No law was enacted or changed.  There is no legally-binding effect of the vote.

Not every phrase in the Constitution has been 'interpreted' by the Supreme Court, HTG.  Does that mean it's  all invalid until SCOTUS rules?  Including your 2nd Amendment rights?
No, it means that if someone challenges in court McCain's natural-born status, the SCOTUS may have to decide the outcome.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2008, 02:46:10 PM »
We should all stop a moment and give silent thanks for the plethora of Constitutional lawyers we have here on APS without which we'd just have meaningless opinions.  rolleyes

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2008, 04:05:37 PM »
Alright, Paddy.  What do you think is the best way to settle the matter?

mtnbkr

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2008, 05:28:22 PM »
Do nothing and have another beer?

Chris

jrfoxx

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2008, 05:58:42 PM »
Quote
natural born citizen
Seems to me, that like the 2A, it's pretty clear what it means, and those griping about McCain's status darn well know it too. A "natural born citizen" would be one who was a citizen of the U.S. at birth, say, by being born to U.S citizens, on U.S. soil,as opposed to one who became one after birth. I think thats pretty clear and cant fathom what else t phrase could mean....
However, just like with lots of ot he things in the Constitution that are painfully clear and obvious,those who dont like the results of the obvious interprettion, and want to dosomething they know dar ell isnt constitutional will manufacture some imagined controversy to try to say it means, or could mean somethng else. Just like with the 2A, those who dont like the clear, plain, true meaning, need some way to justify their opposion and unconstitutional actions and desires, so they will try to invent a new meaning, no matter how ridiculous, baseless, and indefensible, to try to get thier way (see RKBA "collective rght", where "the people suddenly has a new meaning in the 2A thats dferent from its eaning everywhere else).

When all the evidence points to your positon being wrong, all you can do is try to change the evidence itself. Sad, and it shouldnt ever work, and no one should be dumb or gullible enough to be fooled,but, sadly, again lke with the 2A, it can be done, and has been done in the past, and it will take a SCOTUS ruling to interpret it and make th truth "official", and even then, those opposed to the ruling which affirms the clear, obvious meaning,  when it goes against them, will say the court is a bunch of "activst judges", "reinventing the constitution" (see the appeals court ruling in Heller, as DC and the anti groups cried exactly that). When SCOTUS rules McCain eligiable as a "natural born citizen", it will be a "vast right-wing cospiracy" from "activist juges" "re-inventing the true, clear meaning" of the Constitution. Mark my words. Smiley

All that said, this little scam wont go anywhere IMHO, and will never even be brought to court at all. It will just be an excuse,and source of whining if they lose to McCian in November. It will be "2 stolen elections" in a row. An "We'd have been in the White House both times if we weren't cheated".And we didnt lose because we are incompetant, in-fighting, socialist idiots, it's the vast right wing conspiracy keeping us down!" It will be all Bush's, Rove's, and Limbaugh's fault. The bastards! Smiley

The Dems better  careful arguing this, since if they are going to claim that being born to U.S. ctizens, on U.S. soil, isnt a "natural born citizen", then Hillary and Obama arent eligible either, and I guess Bush has to stay President, since there's no one else who can run either, not being "natural born citizens" and all.That oughtta scare them off of pursuing this Smiley

Perd Hapley

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2008, 07:02:12 PM »
Better yet, have Bush step down, and let Cheney have a couple of terms.  They ought to love that!   laugh
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jrfoxx

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2008, 07:59:43 PM »
Apparently everyone here is right.You are evil!  grin

K Frame

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2008, 06:26:09 AM »
Alright, Paddy.  What do you think is the best way to settle the matter?

Obviously blame it on Reagan.

This was a crock of crap when it was raised, it's a crock of crap now.

The man was born of two US citizens.

That right there should be the deciding factor.
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Fly320s

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2008, 11:10:53 AM »
We should all stop a moment and give silent thanks for the plethora of Constitutional lawyers we have here on APS without which we'd just have meaningless opinions.  rolleyes
Try this one on for size.

What if the Senate had voted 100% in favor of saying that you, Paddy McRiley, are not a US citizen?  Do you think that should be binding?

Again, the Congress and Senate do not interpret laws, at least not so far as to affect court rulings and criminal cases.  The Senators can have their opinions and make themselves heard by holding these meaningless "nonbinding Senate resolution" votes, but they don't mean diddly-squat.

The standard should be whether McCain was issued a US Passport the first time he apllied for one or whether he had to apply for some sort of Visa or citizenship after age 18.  Sort of a precedent, I think.  If someone wishes to challenge McCain's natural-born status, then they will need to do so at the SCOTUS.
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Regolith

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2008, 06:44:36 PM »
Alright, Paddy.  What do you think is the best way to settle the matter?
The man was born of two US citizens.

And in US controlled territory.

If that outlawed McCain from running for President, then that means every single military kid who was born on a foreign military base would not be counted as full naturalized US citizens.  Bullocks to that.  That's just punishing our soldiers, because that's telling them if they have a kid while they and their families are stationed overseas, then their kid will never be able to become president.
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Finch

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2008, 12:48:53 PM »
Quote
That's just punishing our soldiers, because that's telling them if they have a kid while they and their families are stationed overseas, then their kid will never be able to become president.

I could live with that, just to make sure that McCain never becomes president...
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2008, 02:31:15 PM »
its easy to glibly say "you could live with it" when it is someone elses rights affected   ain't it
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

seeker_two

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2008, 03:11:42 PM »
Face it, Paddy.....we ain't gonna get that lucky.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2008, 03:30:31 PM »
Quote
What if the Senate had voted 100% in favor of saying that you, Paddy McRiley, are not a US citizen?  Do you think that should be binding?

That's an inane statement without any sort of basis whatsoever, since I was born in California which is (arguably  laugh) in the United States.  It makes about as much sense as saying someone born by way of Caesarean section is not a 'natural' birth.

What I said was 'any reasonable man' (you are familiar with the 'reasonable man' standard, Mr J.D.?) would consider a birth on a U.S. military base anywhere in the world as 'natural' or equal to birth in the CONUS.

Finch

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2008, 05:02:10 PM »
its easy to glibly say "you could live with it" when it is someone elses rights affected   ain't it

Right, because I was 100% serious. Not a chance in hell that I just used it as an opportunity to take a shot at McCain and show my disgust and disdain for a man who obviously doesn't give a rats ass about our liberties and freedoms.  rolleyes
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Tallpine

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2008, 02:02:05 PM »
FWIW, one of our neighbors was born in a US military hospital in Germany.  Not sure how it works, but somehow she had US citizenship from birth, even though she is a native German.  undecided
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Fly320s

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2008, 09:30:11 AM »
It depends on the laws in the country of birth.

A friend of mine was born in France (not a US military base or property) to a US citizen mother and a French citizen father.

My friend had dual citizenship until the age of 18, when he chose to become a US citizen only.

A pilot I work with holds both US and Brazilian (IIRC) citizenships, along with US and Brazilian passports.  He uses the Brazil passport when traveling to avoid be hassled by the anti-American types.
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Bigjake

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Re: wonder what they do with paul terminal?
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2008, 01:04:47 PM »
Quote
The man was born of two US citizens.

That right there should be the deciding factor.

Slight thread drift,

That should be the bloody lithmus test every friggin time!

Put an end to this "hop the border, pop a kid out, voila! anchor!" nonsense.