An Atheist in the Foxhole

[RevDisk]

THE major difference is that, in other religions, violence shown by their "lunatic fringe" bring ringing denunciations almost immediately...

 I heard MANY Christians condemning the abortion clinic bombings, even many on the pro-life side. If pagans started bombing places of worship of "People of the Book", you'ld see folks like myself, Broken Paw, and RevDisk out hunting the perpetrators. If a group of radical Jews started bombing mosques, I'd lay money that Rabbi would be loud and clear in his disgust of the act.

 Yet Muslims, by and large, have ignored the violent acts of their lunatic fringe, even tacitly (and sometimes, not so tacitly) approved of it...

Most religions have used violence when it suited them.  I'm not referring to hundreds of years ago.  Ben-Gurion/Begin and the King David Hotel bombing.  Both the Ulster nationalists and Catholics in Ireland.  Heck, the Armenian Genocide was only about 90 years ago.  Some have much higher body counts than others.

I suppose I'll be slated an Islamic apoligist, or an insensitive Islam hater, for my remarks, but hey, that's life.  Islam is a religion, not a unified ethnic group.  There are dozens of significant sects within Islam. 

The group that we're more or less at war with is the Wahabbism.  It was founded by Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab as a conservative 18th century reformist call of Sunni Islam.  It is largely based on the teachings of Taqī ad-Dīn Abul Abbās Ahmad ibn 'Abd al-Halim ibn 'Abd as-Salam Ibn Taymiya al-Harrānī  (yes, I copied that as there's no way I could ever memorize it), more universally known as Ibn Taymiyyah, about 1300.   Ibn Taymiyyah really hated the infidels.  Infidels primarily being Mongols, Sufism and Shia.  Even today, for every one Westerner killed by Wahabbi fanatics, they kill at least a hundred Muslims of a different sect.

With me so far?   The Wahabbi sect's main purpose is 'purifying' Islam at the point of the sword.  This is primarily concerned with other Muslims as they wish to remove "heretical" beliefs from Islam, but also on the tangent of removing outside non-Muslim influences from the region.  The Muslim Brotherhood has traditionally been the Wahabbi militant arm. There are other sects that are dangerous, but none are as remotely close to the Muslim Brotherhood and its derivatives.

If you want a cheat sheet that is woefully simplistic.  The Shia are territorial.  If they blow anything up, it'll be within a couple hundred miles of their own turf.  They don't export terrorism from the region, 99% of the time.  But they can cause a lot of issues in contested turf.    Sunni are amoung the most industrially and educationally advanced, but also have the most militant sects.  These sects ARE perfectly willing to travel to cause problems.  Shia tends to have more people, Sunni tend to have the money.  Druze, Alawite, Kurds, Albanians, et al, also territorial but their warfare ends to be ethnic.  They don't have the land, people or money to compete with the Sunni and *expletive deleted*it. 

If you're still skeptical, go find a soldier that served in the Balkans, Kurdistan, Turkey or Egypt if they were unduly concerned about the locals clipping them.  Then go find another soldier that served in the Sunni triangle in Iraq, Yemen, et al.

Still with me?

If you are an American concerned with a hostile branch Islam, you only need to really worry about the militant arm of the Sunni.  As none of the rest are gonna cross an ocean to bother you.  If you're above average intelligence, you'll notice that the Sunni are heavily outnumbered by the other sects.  An even more intelligence person would try to work ways to get these other sects to handle one's dirty work of removing the travelling Wahabbi sects. 

As for those concerned about the lack of Muslim outrage, you shouldn't be.  First off, there are plenty of Muslims outraged and very vocal about doing so.  They don't get much space in media, whether in the US or in the ME.  So go talk to them.  Dearborn, MI has tons of 'em.   Sure, they have their gripes about this or that, but they'll be honked off that idiots go around blowing stuff up.  As for Muslims within the ME, the rank and file wisely keep very quiet about all matters.  The tallest tree is cut down in very short order.  Freedom of expression is not exactly common.  Very real issues like corruption, ruling oligarchies, tightly controlled information, and state funded violence is rampant.  There are lots of problems.  Terrorism is a concern, but numerically speaking, not exactly the most important one at most times.

[The Annoyed Man]

That's good enough for me: well explained bro!

[De Selby]

OK, the bigotry continues.  Are you trying to prove your point, then, or do you really believe that? 

I don't consider it bigotry to point out that hatred of Jews (and now Muslims) seems to have been a feature of American public life for a long time.  I do believe that it is a fact, and that a quick perusal of the anti-semitic policies and sentiments of the past 100 years in America, followed by a comparison to the attitudes expressed towards Muslims today, will yield more than enough information to support the conclusion.

[Art Eatman]

If any of "mainstream" Islamics are publicly speaking out against the Jihadists and riotous types (like the car burners in France) it's a well-kept secret.    Seems to me it would be a newsworthy item.

I can speak publicly against any religion except Islam and have no fear of physical retribution.  I cannot speak publicly against Islam without anticipating some future violence against me.  Now, why is saying that "bigoted"?

My own opinion of Islam is that it creates a static socioeconomic system.  Better said, maybe, it HAS created a static socioeconomic system.   They went from being leaders in math and medicine to being nowhere in much of anything.  If it weren't for western geologists discovering oil and western inventors developing multitudinous uses therefor, the Islamics of the mideast would still be screwing camels.  But for oil exports, the sum total of all exports from all mideast and North African Islamic countries equals the GDP of Denmark.  Static. 

Basically, the Jihadists have declared war on civilization once again, and we're in real short supply for an El Cid.

When you're the Great Satan because of Rock&Roll music, bikinis, women dancing with men and owning property and for the freedom to show porno flicks or be homosexual, you're not dealing with sane people.  Sane by our standards, and our standards are what apply outside any Islamic country. 

I'm not interested in "understanding Islam and Islamics".  I'm interested in them understanding a fundamental deal for ME:  "All men and women are created equal, with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and peace and quiet."

[De Selby]

If any of "mainstream" Islamics are publicly speaking out against the Jihadists and riotous types (like the car burners in France) it's a well-kept secret.    Seems to me it would be a newsworthy item.

I can speak publicly against any religion except Islam and have no fear of physical retribution.  I cannot speak publicly against Islam without anticipating some future violence against me.  Now, why is saying that "bigoted"?

My own opinion of Islam is that it creates a static socioeconomic system.  Better said, maybe, it HAS created a static socioeconomic system.   They went from being leaders in math and medicine to being nowhere in much of anything.  If it weren't for western geologists discovering oil and western inventors developing multitudinous uses therefor, the Islamics of the mideast would still be screwing camels.  But for oil exports, the sum total of all exports from all mideast and North African Islamic countries equals the GDP of Denmark.  Static. 

Basically, the Jihadists have declared war on civilization once again, and we're in real short supply for an El Cid.

When you're the Great Satan because of Rock&Roll music, bikinis, women dancing with men and owning property and for the freedom to show porno flicks or be homosexual, you're not dealing with sane people.  Sane by our standards, and our standards are what apply outside any Islamic country. 

I'm not interested in "understanding Islam and Islamics".  I'm interested in them understanding a fundamental deal for ME:  "All men and women are created equal, with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and peace and quiet."

Just try this-name one "mainstream" or any other Islamic "sect" that has not spoken out against terrorism.

If you search the roster of such organizations, you will be hard pressed to find any such group other than Al Qaeda itself that has not vocally and repeatedly condemned terrorism.

Unfortunately, they don't own CNN, so they can't force CNN to carry "Muslim groups denounce terrorists-again" every day.

A note on calling for the return of guys like "El cid"-those are the people who gifted places like Haiti, South America, and Africa to the world, and who expelled every last Jew from Spain on pain of death. 

In other words, we already had another El Cid-his name was Adolf Hitler; the two had remarkably similar ideologies and were at the forefront of remarkably similar movements.  Thanks, but no thanks, if you ask me.

[Perd Hapley]

OK, the bigotry continues.  Are you trying to prove your point, then, or do you really believe that? 

I don't consider it bigotry to point out that hatred of Jews (and now Muslims) seems to have been a feature of American public life for a long time.  I do believe that it is a fact, and that a quick perusal of the anti-semitic policies and sentiments of the past 100 years in America, followed by a comparison to the attitudes expressed towards Muslims today, will yield more than enough information to support the conclusion.

Or perhaps you are just severely confused. 

[BlueStarLizzard]

ok, so i didn't read the entire article. it was just to rant-like. yuck. but i get the jist. so here goes one atheist.

i temper my remarks around christians on a regular basis. because i live with one. i have often tempered my remarks in here, due to respect of my fellow members and because i have no wish or need to offend them. if i was suronded by muslims whom i respected and felt were intellegent human beings i would also speck politely and respectfully.

my issues are not with one religion or another. its is the idea of ORGANIZED RELIGION that i don't like/agree with. i waver between agnostic and atheist depending on the day. the resons why i dislike organized religions are many and often complicated, and sometimes based in my own faith (which is personal and nessasary) in the world around me. also, my issues are not usually with the induviduals, but the masses.

that being said, i don't feel the need to bash the entirity of a particular religion, just because i don't like one sect, group or thought. i agree that the 'war on islam' is a misnomer and misleading, and potentially harmful to muslims living in our country.
now, if you want to bash, hate or mildly dislike another group. be my guest. if you want to speak out against those folks go ahead. don't be suprised if you get yelled at, because, in my experiance anytime someone states ANY opinion about ANYTHING, someones gonna get their panties in a twist.

and its not an american issue with bigotry. every group has their 'thing'. its human nature to dislike a group diffrent from their own. hell, even i have a problem with mexicans... exscuse me... illigial immigrants from hispanic countries because their culture is such that it offends me.

did that make sense?

[Art Eatman]

BSL, I don't have all that much use for organized religion, I guess, but it's mostly on account of how some of the folks in it have this, "My view, or you're gone to Hell!" twist.  Face it, people can screw up anything--whether it's a religion or our Constitution.

One thing for sure, nobody's ever reported back from Heaven, Hell, or The Blank Void.  So, you don't know, I don't know, nor does anybody else.

I do note that a fair number of Olde Phart atheists find Jesus somewhere in those last years, and apparently start cramming for finals.  Insufficent faith?  Damfino.

But you can actually badmouth Christianity without worrying about having your head haggled of with a dull sword for the benefit of video cameras.  Can't say the same for the Jihadist crowd--and you don't even have to badmouth them.  Just be different. 

shootinstudent, why don't you just sashay on back to the fish market with your red herrings?  El Cid had damn-all to do with Spain's New World adventures.  You keep yapping history as though you actually knew something about it.

[BlueStarLizzard]

*chuckle*

But you can actually badmouth Christianity without worrying about having your head haggled of with a dull sword for the benefit of video cameras.  Can't say the same for the Jihadist crowd--and you don't even have to badmouth them.  Just be different.

odd, i'll badmouth the jihad nutters anyday. i'm not going to let such behavior scare me away from speaking my mind. and i'll back up my chances for survival with a 1911. it is one thing to be polite and respectful of opposing views. its another to repress your own veiws for the fear of offending somebody. and if you refuse to speak your mind cause your too scared, then you are a bonified weeny.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

this is painful for me
to be loud and proud denouncing the jihadists is  real good way to get your family whacked. sadly my kin in northern ireland weren't much better. were it not for catholicisms ban on suicide there would nbe lil way to see much difference in the two groups.  the soulution is probably gonna have to come from within the islamic cultures and its probably gonna be messy.
to b

[Perd Hapley]

Yeah, we gotta stop that organization that's going on out there.    


Wait, what? 

[De Selby]

shootinstudent, why don't you just sashay on back to the fish market with your red herrings?  El Cid had damn-all to do with Spain's New World adventures.  You keep yapping history as though you actually knew something about it.

That is absolutely untrue-he had everything to do with it.  The Reconquista culture was going strong when Spain's armies swept the world and turned it into a resource farm for the dynastic wars all over Europe.  Bivar's time and exploits served as the genesis for 20th century racist movements-that is the root of the most vile anti-semitism and racism in Europe, the Spanish push to cleanse Europe of blacks and Jews.  And that's exactly what they did-just like Hitler tried to do later. 

Nazi racism and anti-semitism did not appear out of the blue, and if you look for its origins, you will find it in post-Reconquista Spain, where "el cid" was the hero of the day, since he spent his life killing the blacks and Jews that the Spanish kings loved to hate.

Edit:  I see that Art doesn't find me credible on this subject:

El Cid had damn-all to do with Spain's New World adventures.  You keep yapping history as though you actually knew something about it.

But I think if you read period sources (most are in english, but it helps to read spanish), you'll find that not only is this statement incorrect, it's fairly hard to read anything about the New World without finding the incessant Spanish references to El Cid.  "Santiago" was the battle cry, for example, throughout new Spain....so no need to take my word for it on this one; any source you'd like to investigate will settle this matter clearly.

[De Selby]

*chuckle*

But you can actually badmouth Christianity without worrying about having your head haggled of with a dull sword for the benefit of video cameras.  Can't say the same for the Jihadist crowd--and you don't even have to badmouth them.  Just be different.

odd, i'll badmouth the jihad nutters anyday. i'm not going to let such behavior scare me away from speaking my mind. and i'll back up my chances for survival with a 1911. it is one thing to be polite and respectful of opposing views. its another to repress your own veiws for the fear of offending somebody. and if you refuse to speak your mind cause your too scared, then you are a bonified weeny.

The odds are overwhelmingly better that by bashing Islam, you will get a series of New York times bestsellers and television appearances, rather than ending up hurt by a crazed Jihadist.