Author Topic: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry  (Read 13486 times)

wmenorr67

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,775
Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« on: May 14, 2008, 03:28:34 AM »
Quote
RESTON, Va.   The patrons at Champps, an upscale restaurant and bar chain, were eating ribs and drinking beer on a recent Saturday when customer Bruce Jackson stood up and made an announcement: He was armed, and so were dozens of other patrons.

The armed customers stood up in unison, showing off their holstered pistols and revolvers. Jackson said a word or two about the rights of gun owners to carry firearms in Virginia, then thanked everyone for their attention and sat down.

The diners returned to their burgers and Budweisers.

The Virginia Citizens Defense League organized the gathering at Champps to prove a point: that the presence of armed customers in northern Virginia restaurants would elicit little more than shrugs.

The Champps appearance _ and several other restaurant visits throughout northern Virginia last month _ were a response to comments from the majority leader in the state Senate, Democrat Richard Saslaw, who said armed patrons would be unwelcome in northern Virginia restaurants.

"In most urban areas, you walk into a restaurant with a gun on your hip, they're going to tell you to get out," Saslaw said.

In fact, with a few exceptions, the gun owners got their meals. The group went to eight different restaurants in April _ including the Fuddruckers burger chain and the McLean Family Restaurant _ and more often than not their presence failed to generate a stir. At two eateries, they were asked to leave.

All the restaurants were in Fairfax County, a bastion of suburbia and soccer moms outside Washington that is the wealthiest county in America, according to the most recent Census data.

"This is an area with a large population of government agents _ FBI, CIA, local," said Champps' manager, Carey Vereen. "In terms of people seeing open carry, it's not a shock to our customers."

It is also a place where nerves over the gun debate are still somewhat raw a year after the shootings at Virginia Tech, where 32 people were slain, including many from northern Virginia.

Gun owners in Virginia are allowed to carry firearms in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol, as long as the restaurant permits it and they carry their weapon openly. Legislation to allow concealed weapons in restaurants serving alcohol passed the General Assembly this year, but was vetoed by Gov. Timothy M. Kaine.

Virginia is one of two states, along with Montana, that demands any arms be openly carried in restaurants that serve alcohol, according to the Web site opencarry.org, which promotes and monitors gun owners' rights. Eleven states ban guns altogether in restaurants that serve alcohol, while the rest make no distinction between open and concealed carry.

At Champps, several patrons failed to notice that so many customers were armed, even though dozens of gun-toting men and women had walked right past them.

Tomas Nolasco said he hadn't noticed the guns and didn't care as long as they weren't drinking, which they weren't. His wife was a little more concerned.

"There are families in here, children in here," Cathy Nolasco said. "It bothers me."

Dave Vann, a retired D.C. police officer and VCDL member who organized the restaurant visits, said the gun owners' presence make the restaurant more safe, not less.

Many of the men who carry weapons said people frequently just assume they're police or retired police.

At one restaurant _ Mike's American Grill _ the group had gone essentially unnoticed until a woman in her 20s with a satin-finished, stainless-steel revolver got up from her table.

The restaurant's manager spotted her and asked the group to either put the guns in their cars or leave. They left.

"When I saw the gun on her hip, I was like, 'What is going on here?'" said the manager, Gabba Kaye, who hadn't noticed the guns when the group of 20 checked in for their lunch reservation.

Kaye said he hadn't received complaints from customers, but that the weapons made him uncomfortable. He also said he had been warned by the restaurant's owners about the visit and instructed not to allow the group service while carrying.

Saslaw said he's not necessarily surprised that VCDL found restaurants in the region that would allow them to dine while armed. But he said that carrying guns is simply not normal behavior in this area.

"What normal person walks around with a gun on your hip? Something's wrong in your life" if you feel compelled to carry a gun as part of your daily routine, he said.

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008May14/0,4670,GunsinRestaurants,00.html

Good show.




There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 03:31:31 AM »
That's the way it should be.  Except for the impromptu speech by the VCDL

Just like this:

"Kinves in restaurant draw stares, but little outcry."
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

LadySmith

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,166
  • Veni, Vidi, Jactavi Calceos
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 03:39:11 AM »
Quote
"There are families in here, children in here," Cathy Nolasco said. "It bothers me."
Quote
"When I saw the gun on her hip, I was like, 'What is going on here?'" said the manager, Gabba Kaye
Quote
"What normal person walks around with a gun on your hip? Something's wrong in your life" if you feel compelled to carry a gun as part of your daily routine, he said.

"I'm afraid, so you have to change." Amazing how paranoid they come across.
Rogue AI searching for amusement and/or Ellie Mae imitator searching for critters.
"What doesn't kill me makes me stronger...and it also makes me a cat-lover" - The Viking
According to Ben, I'm an inconvenient anomaly (and proud of it!).

Standing Wolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,978
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 04:02:34 AM »
Quote
"I'm afraid, so you have to change." Amazing how paranoid they come across.

Scratch a bully, and you'll always find a coward.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,988
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 04:57:34 AM »
I'd like to know the name of the other restaurant that asked them to leave so I can not go there the next time I find myself in Virginia.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 05:00:17 AM »
At last, a thread where I can feel all smug and superior and patriotic!

See, down here it is not an issue - if people carry guns, they carry them openly.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

wmenorr67

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,775
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 05:06:23 AM »
Wish I had the option of open carry.

Make it easier to carry my Ruger.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 05:11:54 AM »
There's open carry here, but you only see it in the north country. If someone tries it in the southern parts, someone from MA will panic and report a man with a gun, and you'll have to explain to the police, and hope the cop that comes isn't a twitchy sort.

I've never seen the point of open carry, anyway, except hiking or riding. If a criminal intends to commit a crime, open carry is like a sign over your head of "shoot this person first!"...

I like it better when it's easy for people to legally carry concealed. Then the criminals don't know who is armed, and who will nail them if they try to rob a place...so they have a strong deterrent.

Seems to work, too, here.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 05:23:38 AM »
Quote
I've never seen the point of open carry, anyway, except hiking or riding. If a criminal intends to commit a crime, open carry is like a sign over your head of "shoot this person first!"...

Or "DON'T ATTACK THIS PERSON."

Many people - including many really bad guys, will avoid messing with you altogether if you're armed.

You can never be sure you'll kill/disable the victim  with the first shot, and most of these people are cowards. Remember most self-defense uses of firearms end with the good guy drawing the gun.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 05:26:36 AM »
Then why, in a serious coldblooded bank or armored car robbery, do they shoot the armed guard first?

I prefer concealed. The first indication a bad guy should have that I'm armed is a muzzleflash and hopefully a sudden and disabling injury.

And if it's not a robbery, if it's a mall rampage, a visible gun means they'd be watching carefully. I'd rather be one of the anonymous, ignored masses right up until the point I find hard cover and line up aimed shots.

Widespread concealed weapons really seems to have kept crime down here, the opposite of the next state down, where they're very hard to get. (for anyone but criminals, of course). There have been several "surprise!" cases where an armed thug finds themselves taking shots from a CCW holder, and I think that unknown has served as a deterrent. Anyone might be armed. They can't tell.

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,307
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 05:29:22 AM »
Quote
I've never seen the point of open carry, anyway, except hiking or riding. If a criminal intends to commit a crime, open carry is like a sign over your head of "shoot this person first!"...

Or "DON'T ATTACK THIS PERSON."

Many people - including many really bad guys, will avoid messing with you altogether if you're armed.

You can never be sure you'll kill/disable the victim  with the first shot, and most of these people are cowards. Remember most self-defense uses of firearms end with the good guy drawing the gun.

Criminals have no compunction about shooting you in the back. Don't start that "if you want to carry a gun, carry it openly on your hip" crap. Concealed carry is better and safer for the average citizen. You do not want to draw the attention of LE or the bad guys. I fully support having the option of concealed or open carry, but I prefer concealed.




Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,797
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2008, 05:30:15 AM »
Am I the only one who things the restaurant bit is really stupid and immature? I carry a gun, but not so that I can stand up at restaurants and proclaim that I do so to dozens of strangers.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,307
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2008, 05:35:19 AM »
Am I the only one who things the restaurant bit is really stupid and immature? I carry a gun, but not so that I can stand up at restaurants and proclaim that I do so to dozens of strangers.

I kind of agree. It's nice that they were armed, but standing up and making a speech is stupid.

Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2008, 05:41:19 AM »
Criminals have no compunction about shooting you in the back.

Depending on the sort of criminal, neither should you.

Take the aforementioned mall rampage. What's better, to flee from a guy who saw you had a gun and decided to start with you as a result, as they spray their trenchcoat-concealed whatever at you?

Or to have them not notice you, find hard cover, and be able to take your time lining up a few perfect shots to their center of mass, center of back from behind as they're busy shooting at other people?

I know which makes more sense to me, and is likely to save more lives, too!

I don't carry a gun to make a statement. I carry one for self defense and defense of innocents from violent criminals that are without any doubt trying to kill them.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,286
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2008, 05:46:46 AM »
The whole thing with carrying opening in restaurants in Virginia that serve alcohol is one of making a point.

You cannot carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol, but you can carry openly. Stupid vagarity of the law.

But, prior to 1995, when the current CCW law was put into place, it was perfectly legal for CCW holders to carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol.

And, as far as anyone has ever been able to determine, there was NEVER a single problem.

VCDL is trying to point out the stupidity and contradiction in the two laws.

There have been numerous proposals to fix the CCW law, but none have suceeded.

Every time it comes up the anti-CCW crowd starts pissing their pants and trotting out fear campaigns. "But someone with a concealed gun might have alcohol spilled on him, which would cause him to slaughter every patron in the restaurant AND rape the manager!"

I have to admit, I've ignored the law numerous times over the years for a couple of reasons... I don't drink, and every time I've ignored it the person with whom I'm eating dinner is a Federal police officer with full police powers in Virginia. He threatens to arrest me every time, but he and I both know that he's too lazy to do the paperwork. Smiley
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2008, 05:54:24 AM »
Quote
Kaye said he hadn't received complaints from customers, but that the weapons black people made him uncomfortable. He also said he had been warned by the restaurant's owners about the visit and instructed not to allow the group service.

 angry
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2008, 05:58:29 AM »
Then why, in a serious coldblooded bank or armored car robbery, do they shoot the armed guard first?

Dozens of terrorist acts - literally - have been stopped by armed civilians down here. Suicide bombers. AK-47-wielding nutcases. Knife-wielding idiots. You name it.

I have seen a person who is a self-defense instructor recommend that all those people traveling in the Territories or near the border for whatever reasons carry openly.

Most criminals are NOT professional bank robbers.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2008, 05:59:30 AM »
Most criminals are NOT professional bank robbers.

Don'tcha know every criminal is a character from Heat?

Chris

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2008, 06:02:46 AM »
Most criminals are NOT professional bank robbers.

Don'tcha know every criminal is a character from Heat?

Chris

I'm just thinking of things like the armored car robbery in Florida a few months ago where a guy just ran up on the armed guard and shot him several times pointblank, then his associate as well, killing them both, then taking the money.

Not movie-style. Just cold sociopath killer. They tend to shoot at the people who can shoot back first.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2008, 06:11:19 AM »
To be frank, and not to divert the thread, I don't think either of the two is a genuinely 'better' option, both have advantages.

However, were I an American citizen of the appropriate age, and had I had a pistol in my posession, it would likely be an openly-carried double-stack semi-auto, possibly a Springfield XD or Glock.

This however is no gun forum.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2008, 06:17:51 AM »
I'm just thinking of things like the armored car robbery in Florida a few months ago where a guy just ran up on the armed guard and shot him several times pointblank, then his associate as well, killing them both, then taking the money.

Not movie-style. Just cold sociopath killer. They tend to shoot at the people who can shoot back first.

I imagine he shot the guy who was uniformed and in control of the money, not simply because he had a gun.  That guy would've gotten shot if he didn't have a gun because he was the immediate obstacle between the crook and the money.

An armed person (street clothes) in a crowd of people doesn't really stand out unless he walks right in front of you. 

Chris

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2008, 04:26:07 PM »
can the concealed only folk point to an example of someone oc who "got shot first" as a result of oc?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2008, 10:16:31 PM »
I think it's like those myths that you can't use handloads/hollow-points/+P rounds in a self-defense firearm, or defend yourself with a Black Rifle, or whatever.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2008, 03:33:15 PM »
While I understand why it would be better to conceal carry. Like Manedwolf said, if someone is bent on just killing a bunch of random people more than likely they will shoot the person who can fight back first. BUT, a believe in this time of age it is important to also openly carry because I believe that a right not exercised is a right lost.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

LAK

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 915
Re: Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2008, 10:50:13 PM »
WTG!

Quote
"What normal person walks around with a gun on your hip?
Well anyone walking around with a gun on my hip would arouse my curiosity. Anyone wearing a gun on their own hip, I would think that is quite normal and ignore them for the most part.  grin