Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry

[Manedwolf]

I think it's like those myths that you can't use handloads/hollow-points/+P rounds in a self-defense firearm, or defend yourself with a Black Rifle, or whatever.

Myths? The first is law in New Jersey. And when a dead home invader's deadbeat family files a civil suit against you, the sleazy lawyer will hold up an example of the rifle you used to try to convince everyone that you were a horrible person who wanted to kill people with this evil black assault rifle. That's just a fact.

[MicroBalrog]

NJ bans hollow-points period.  I mean more like Ayoob's endless articles about how you'll get sued to death if you shoot an attacked by a hollowpoint or handload.

[Ex-MA Hole]

Am I the only one who things the restaurant bit is really stupid and immature? I carry a gun, but not so that I can stand up at restaurants and proclaim that I do so to dozens of strangers.

I kind of agree. It's nice that they were armed, but standing up and making a speech is stupid.

Yeah....that was my though, too....

I don't open carry, because I CHOOSE not to.  I just don't want to.  I like appearing like a sheep.  I like blending in.  Aside from match days, where I MAY done a Walther shirt, I wear nothing that screams gun.  Aside from a no-shoot sticker on my car, which unless you shoot IDPA, you will have no idea what it means...no NRA stickers, nothing.

I don't want to draw a second look.

I like to blend in...

[LadySmith]

While I understand why it would be better to conceal carry. Like Manedwolf said, if someone is bent on just killing a bunch of random people more than likely they will shoot the person who can fight back first. BUT, a believe in this time of age it is important to also openly carry because I believe that a right not exercised is a right lost.

I'm of the same sentiment as Freakazoid on this issue.
It's a personal choice and I understand concealment, but open carry could serve to acclimate those unused to seeing guns in the hands of ordinary people.

Kaye said he hadn't received complaints from customers, but that the weapons black people made him uncomfortable. He also said he had been warned by the restaurant's owners about the visit and instructed not to allow the group service.

 

Not too long ago that might've been the case.
These days, I'd probably be Kaye's worst nightmare. 

[LAK]

I think in general open carry is best for casual dress while concealed carry is more appropriate with formal dress. So I would say it boils down to what restaurant I was dining at and how I had dressed.

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[mek42]

Regarding criminals shooting the open carry person first, if a would be criminal walked into an establishment he (or she) was about to rob and noticed that 20% of the patrons were open carrying, maybe, just maybe, he'd go somewhere else.  I mean, maybe you could take out 2 people before anyone could draw, but if there's 5 or more people open carrying?

I think that individuals open carrying can help to increase awareness that carrying a gun != automatic raging massacre.  Also, if open carry thus becomes more prevalent there will be a deterrent effect against crime.  It is way too much like work to be on the wrong end of return fire for the average criminal.

Against one of those killing spree / suicide types that have been making the media often these days, I don't know that they'll care either way open or not.

Unfortunately, here in NY open carry is illegal.  Other places people can choose what they're most comfortable with.  Choices are good.

[Manedwolf]

I should also point out that even though open carry is legal here, you CAN still be arrested for disturbing the peace and causing public alarm.

Which means if someone panics and reports a man with a gun because you're walking around the buffet with your biggest barbecue gun on your hip, yes, you CAN be arrested and charged.

[K Frame]

Yes, you can certainly be charged, but the chances of you being convicted are nil, and damned slim of it even going to a judge.

That's been tried here in Virginia, in Fairfax County, a couple of times, as well as a couple other places in Virginia. It's failed every time and has resulted in the charges being dropped by police.

If an individual is complying with the law, and someone else gets all panicky about it, there's no basis for the arrest. The person carrying the gun would have to be acting in a manner outside the boundaries of the law. Simply walking up to a buffet doesn't qualify.

[MicroBalrog]

Google 'Michael Pelletier' and 'Open Carry', Manedwolf.

That's the worst thing that happened to a regular NH citizen openly carrying in a peaceful manner, and even that wasn't terribly bad.

[Manedwolf]

.

[K Frame]

If you want to reword your response, that would be fine, Maned Wolf.

But there's absolutely no need to rehash the scenario in the terms which you used, nor is it necessary to rekindle the entire nasty exchange between the two of you.

Neither party in the Pellietier incident handled it well.

[MicroBalrog]

If you want to reword your response, that would be fine, Maned Wolf.

But there's absolutely no need to rehash the scenario in the terms which you used, nor is it necessary to rekindle the entire nasty exchange between the two of you.

Neither party in the Pellietier incident handled it well.

I wish not to rehash the incident, because its finer points are not relevant to the discussion. The point is the person carried a gun openly in a peacable manner, still does so on a daily basis, and avoids being SWAT-raided on his way to shopping mall and back.

The idea that a person carrying a gun (and by this I mean carrying it on his belt, not, say, wielding a Desert Eagle in each hand while grinning wildly) would somehow magically prompt the cops to land you in prison, in a reasonably pro-gun state, is very dubious, especially in the light of the fact people carry guns openly every day and none of that stuff happens to them.

[Manedwolf]

MicroBalrog,

He had left his jacket in his car, and was open-carrying in the small of his back. Where he couldn't see the gun, but everyone else could.

I suggest you ask any firearms instructor if that's wise.

The fact that the officer was able to sneak up behind him and grab the gun, to me, demonstrated that that's not a particularly safe way to open carry, and that he ought to have been grateful that it was a cop, not a bad guy who did that.

If you are going to open carry, at least have the gun in your sight and/or in your immediate control, not somewhere where you can't see it, where everyone else can, and where you'd immediately lose retention of the weapon in a surprise grapple.

[Ezekiel]

Am I the only one who things the restaurant bit is really stupid and immature?

No.

I carry a gun, but not so that I can stand up at restaurants and proclaim that I do so to dozens of strangers.

The model proves nothing.  It is quite likely that the entire reason nobody said anything is because they suddenly realized they were surrounded by gun zealots.

(That's what such childish enterprise would lead ME to presume.)

[MicroBalrog]

Manedwolf: I am not disputing what is the proper way to carry a gun, because I am frankly not qualified to give an opinion. My knowledge about handguns comes from reading various 'practical self-defense' textbooks whose practicality I greatly doubt, and interviewing firearms instructors. I am merely disputing the contention that carrying a pistol openly, in a peacable manner, in a locationn where this is legal to do, can get you into serious trouble with the law.

[MicroBalrog]

Post-scriptum: Had I been an American citizen of the appropriate age, my preferred mode of carry would be to carry a double-stack semi-automatic pistol in either a hip holster or a shoulder holster, openly if such a thing were legal where I would be living.

[Manedwolf]

Manedwolf: I am not disputing what is the proper way to carry a gun, because I am frankly not qualified to give an opinion. My knowledge about handguns comes from reading various 'practical self-defense' textbooks whose practicality I greatly doubt, and interviewing firearms instructors. I am merely disputing the contention that carrying a pistol openly, in a peacable manner, in a locationn where this is legal to do, can get you into serious trouble with the law.

Massad Ayoob is good to read. I'd take one of the courses at the Lethal Force Institute (He's here where I am) if I could get a week off for it.

Been wondering if I could trade a Fortune-500-look web design for a class, too. Their website is awful.

[Ezekiel]

Massad Ayoob is good to read. I'd take one of the courses at the Lethal Force Institute (He's here where I am) if I could get a week off for it.

I have been through LFI I.

"Good stuff."

[K Frame]

I wonder if George Hennard would have considered open carry in a restaurant to be a "childish enterprise."

Those who think it to be a "childish enterprise" are missing the entire point of the exercise.

[The Annoyed Man]

Just want to let everyone know that I appreciate the value hidden within this thread.

I look forward to one day living in Northern New Hampshire and being around people who like minding their own business as much as I do. Or more people who feel that way anyhow.

[Manedwolf]

Well, the other hesitation with a course like that (LFI) is that they ask you to bring your usual carry gun.

My usual carry gun requires a welding glove to hold it if I fire more than 30 rounds or so, until it cools down. That's the one drawback, you can't practice for hours with it. Mike Irwin can likely confirm on that particular model.

[Gewehr98]

Done LFI I and II, myself.

Well worth the tuition and 80 hours.

Mas really pounds into your head the ramifications of carry, and all the things you wouldn't normally think about. 

[K Frame]

"Mike Irwin can likely confirm on that particular model."

I keep hoping I'll come across some woven asbestos cloth in Mom's basement that I can use to make a heat shield...

[freakazoid]

I am merely disputing the contention that carrying a pistol openly, in a peacable manner, in a locationn where this is legal to do, can get you into serious trouble with the law.

I've read about times when that has happened, I believe it seems to usually be for creating a disturbance, 

[cngerms]

I'd like to know the name of the other restaurant that asked them to leave so I can not go there the next time I find myself in Virginia.

VCDL maintains a list of gun-unfriendly establishments. Below is a copy of their information regarding Mike's American Grill. I'm not sure which 2 other eateries refused the group.

Great American Restaurants

Great American Restaurants is very hostile toward gun owners. They actually have a policy against allowing the legal carry of handguns in their restaurants. If they see the gun you are REQUIRED to carry openly, they WILL demand you leave. The staff is instructed to tell the manager, and the manager will demand you leave.

Please avoid patronizing any of the Great American Restaurants:
Artie's
Best Buns Bread Company
Carlyle
Costal Flats
Mikes American
Sweetwater Tavern
Silverado

They are also not friendly on the web. Each web page plays music that cannot be turned off via the web page. The only way to kill the awful music is to turn off your speakers, killing anything that you actually WANT to hear. Sad, really sad.

*** Look at this list which the NRA maintains > http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=15