Author Topic: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.  (Read 27119 times)

Manedwolf

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2008, 03:59:12 AM »
Make them compete with E85. All congress has to do is mandate all cars be flex fueled. Problem solved, they will have to reduce cost to be competitive. Not to mention if they where not in the pocket of the Detroit automakers who have been reducing MPG since '92.

And people who can't afford to buy a new car? Or who love their already-30mpg gasoline vehicle? Screw them, right?

Sorry, not a solution.

In case you hadn't noticed, "Detroit" doesn't control anything, since "Detroit" has been losing marketshare to superior foreign-owned car makers for years.

Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2008, 08:37:39 AM »
Funny thing about those foreign-made cars, though.

The fuel economy numbers on some of the more popular rice-burners aren't exactly what they were when the early CVCCs and Celicas came out.  I noticed that when reeling in shock from a recent Silverado test drive, and figured I'd take a look at comparable Jap vehicle numbers.

IOW, it appears Tokyo didn't learn anything either. 

That, or it's amazingly similar to the housing bubble, people buying more house (or car) than they can afford. 

Taurusowner, as an E85 user and ethanol corn grower in the Corn Belt, I'm very much interested in the source of your water figures.  Please educate me, because I'm trying hard to see who mandated that all of our motor fuel in these United States must come from plants.  I'll wait for your answer...



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The Annoyed Man

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2008, 08:46:30 AM »
Speaking of fuel economy, I have a question.  The window sticker that came on my 2005 Toyota Echo says 35/42, which is pretty close to actual.  The 2008 Toyota Yaris lists 29/36.  AFAIK, they have the same engine, the only diff is bodystyles.  Anybody know what gives?  Did EPA screw around/change the way fuel economy is calculated?

Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 08:58:03 AM »
Paddy, where have you been over the last year or so?

In December of 2006, the EPA issued new test methods to determine the fuel economy rating of automobiles sold here.

The methods were revised to reflect real-world mileage, vs. the exceptionally optimistic ones seen previously on window stickers.

Across the board, the new window sticker mileage estimates dropped, sometimes considerably - but they're more in line with what the consumers will actually get when driving from day to day.
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mtnbkr

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2008, 09:04:50 AM »
That's odd to me because I frequently got better than the window sticker even before the change. 

Chris

The Annoyed Man

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2008, 09:07:14 AM »
That explains it. Thank you.  I did not know that.

Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2008, 09:10:54 AM »
Quote
That's odd to me because I frequently got better than the window sticker even before the change.

Chris

A-Ha!

So you're the old fossil driving 35mph on the Interstate I almost rear-ended the other day!   grin
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charby

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2008, 09:14:17 AM »
hasn't mileage also gone down some because of all the extra weight of the mandated safety stuff?

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

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mtnbkr

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2008, 09:16:37 AM »
Not me, I swerved around that guy minutes before you got there. Smiley

I stick closer to the speed limit these days, but I rarely, if ever, drive below it.

Chris

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2008, 09:32:27 AM »
My old Plymouth Sundance said it got, IIRC, 28-32 or thereabouts.

I never got less than 32 in the city and frequently got close to 40 on the highway.
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Manedwolf

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2008, 09:35:01 AM »
My full-sized Accord was listed at 25/30.

I regularly get 32mpg with it according to interrogation of the computer, which might be due to the larger intake, header and iridium plugs, but I am not complaining.

roo_ster

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2008, 10:45:24 AM »
Paddy, where have you been over the last year or so?

In December of 2006, the EPA issued new test methods to determine the fuel economy rating of automobiles sold here.

The methods were revised to reflect real-world mileage, vs. the exceptionally optimistic ones seen previously on window stickers.

Across the board, the new window sticker mileage estimates dropped, sometimes considerably - but they're more in line with what the consumers will actually get when driving from day to day.

Neither one is "realistic."  If you understand that they are, at best, relative specs and do not insist that they be "realistic," a whole lot more folks would have a while lot less heartburn.

I wish they would have just stayed with the original method, so as to provide a real comparo with older autos.

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roo_ster

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Firethorn

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 05:07:41 PM »
Neither one is "realistic."  If you understand that they are, at best, relative specs and do not insist that they be "realistic," a whole lot more folks would have a while lot less heartburn.

Exactly.  You could say that the old standards were weighted towards fuel miser type drivers - You know, the guys who avoid jackrabbit starts, who time lights, keep out of traffic jams as much as possible, etc...  Generally speaking they were with the radio, AC, fans and such off.

The new standards are more for 'normal' people, who get into traffic jams on occasion with their AC on max.

Quote
I wish they would have just stayed with the original method, so as to provide a real comparo with older autos.

Or went back the last three-four years and posted adjusted figures.  Or even posted old&new figures for a year or three.

Personally, I'd like to get a weak hybrid truck.  It's a vehicle where they replace the alternator and starter with a more powerful motor-generator.  The system is set up so that when you're stopped or stopping, the engine will shut off while the motor keeps everything else powered.  The motor and system is powerful enough to more or less instantly start the engine when you hit the gas.  Just don't count on cruising at 25mph on battery.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2008, 05:23:02 PM »

Personally, I'd like to get a weak hybrid truck.  It's a vehicle where they replace the alternator and starter with a more powerful motor-generator.  The system is set up so that when you're stopped or stopping, the engine will shut off while the motor keeps everything else powered.  The motor and system is powerful enough to more or less instantly start the engine when you hit the gas.  Just don't count on cruising at 25mph on battery.
I've been sorely tempted by the new Jeep Grand Cherokee with the new Mercedes turbo diesel engine.  My Uncle has one or two on his lot, and he says his customers are reporting mileage in the mid 20's range.  That's not bad for a 4,500 pound truck that can comfortably tow a house.

Firethorn

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2008, 07:43:39 AM »
I've been sorely tempted by the new Jeep Grand Cherokee with the new Mercedes turbo diesel engine.  My Uncle has one or two on his lot, and he says his customers are reporting mileage in the mid 20's range.  That's not bad for a 4,500 pound truck that can comfortably tow a house.

Just imagine what it'd get if the engine shuts off when not needed.   grin

The Annoyed Man

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2008, 09:40:57 AM »
FWIW, I just filled up at $4.09.  The owner said it would be $4.19 by the end of the day.

wmenorr67

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2008, 08:03:34 PM »
Yeah but you live in California.  No one really cares. grin

Really though are you being affected with all the weather issues?  I mean a tornado in Riverside, mudslides, fire, sounds like the second coming.
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De Selby

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2008, 10:57:22 PM »
FWIW, I just filled up at $4.09.  The owner said it would be $4.19 by the end of the day.

4.05 to 4.21 in the course of the day here.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2008, 11:11:03 PM »
Quote
Not to mention if they where not in the pocket of the Detroit automakers who have been reducing MPG since '92.

...reducing MPG?
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De Selby

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2008, 11:26:14 PM »
Quote
Not to mention if they where not in the pocket of the Detroit automakers who have been reducing MPG since '92.

...reducing MPG?

Bizarre but true-there are tons of cheap cars from the 80's that get as good or better mileage than the average "efficient" car today.
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seeker_two

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2008, 12:56:36 AM »
http://www.star-telegram.com/ed_wallace/story/659081.html

Quote
Posted on Thu, May. 22, 2008
ICE, ICE, Baby, conclusion




Special to the Star-Telegram
"Whats been happening since 2004 is very high prices without record-low [oil] stocks. The relationship between U.S. [oil] inventory levels and prices has been shredded and become irrelevant."
 Jan Stuart, Global Oil Economist, UBS Securities

"What you have on the financial side is a bunch of money being thrown at the energy futures market. Its just pulling in more and more cash. Thats the side of the market where we have runaway demand, not on the physical side."

 Tim Evans, Senior Oil Analyst, IFR Energy Services [From testimony: U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations report, "The Role of Market Speculation in Rising Oil and Gas Prices," June 27, 2006]

The Love of Money

Record high prices without record low oil inventories, analysts saying that so much money flows into oil commodities that it gives the impression of shortages, when in fact no shortage exists. That mirrors the situation in the commodities market for food, as Bloomberg pointed out in its April 28 article, "Wall Street Grain Hoarding Brings Farmers, Consumers Near Ruin": "Commodity investors control more U.S. crops than ever before, competing with governments and consumers for dwindling food supplies." Thats right; food, oil and gasoline have become an "asset class." No longer are you fighting a neighbor at the supermarket over the last box of Cheerios®; now youre fighting the futures traders, who are actually determining what you will pay for that cereal.

We started as a society that worships hard labor and the basic business ethic of building value into the goods you create. Howd we get from there to worshiping Wall Streets billion-dollar boys  who create nothing, build nothing, own nothing and deliver no goods, and yet can throw so much money into products made by others that they determine what we consumers will pay for those goods?

It wasnt always this way.

In the past, the Commodities Futures Trading Commission acted as the cop on the beat, ensuring that buyers in the market were not distorting or manipulating prices beyond what supply and demand normally dictate. Certainly, if a hard frost hit Florida and cost growers an orange crop, then bidding up the price of the remaining oranges was both a wise investment and allowed under the trading rules. Right now investors know that if they borrow and invest huge amounts in commodities futures, they can create a shortage on paper  which drives prices up just like an actual shortage of any given product would. What kept traders from cornering the market that way in the past were the governments anti-manipulation rules.

Lay, DeLay, Gramm, Gramm & Clinton

The late, infamous Enron head, Ken Lay, realized in the eighties that he could make more money bidding up energy in the futures market than by actually creating and selling energy. But, under then-current rules, how much you could make swapping paper was limited. Fortuitously, Lay had excellent Texas political connections; and in November of 1992, the head of the Commodities Futures Trading Commission moved to exempt energy-derivative contracts and related swaps from any government oversight.

A vote was hurriedly put together before the Clinton White House would take over, and so Lay could finally start "dark"  unregulated  futures trading. The head of the CFTC was Wendy Gramm, wife of Texas Senator Phil Gramm; five weeks after she left, she became a board member of Enron in Houston.

Fast-forward to late 2000 and H.R. 5660, the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, sponsored by Republican Congressman Thomas Ewing of Illinois. That bill went nowhere, even though Tom Delays wife Christine was then working for a Washington lobbying firm, Alexander Strategies  which Enron had paid $200,000 to push through legislation for permanent energy deregulation in these "dark" markets.

Six months later came Senate Bill 3283, also named the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000. This time around the sponsor was Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, and now Phil Gramm was listed as one of the bills co-sponsors. Like it had in the House, this bill was destined to go nowhere until, late one night, it was attached as a rider to an 11,000-page appropriations bill  which was signed into law by President Clinton.

Now traders had an officially deregulated market for energy futures. Worse, that bill also deregulated many financial instruments  including the collateralized debt obligations that are at the center of todays mortgage crisis, which may well cost us more than $1 trillion before its over.

Everybody Was Warned!

As USA Today wrote of this fiasco in January of 2002, "But, as a power marketer, [Enron] could buy enough energy-futures contracts in a region to create a virtual monopoly." Thats right: As early as the winter of 2002, it was widely known that the 2000 Commodities Futures Modernization Act had created a monster, capable of running up energy prices outside of the normal law of supply and demand. Worse, our government had been warned this was going to happen. Representatives of the Federal Reserve, the Securities and Exchange Commission and the CFTC had already told Congress not to deregulate energy because "the market was ripe for manipulation." Everybody was warned; thats why this deregulation bill was stealthily inserted into that appropriations bill without a floor debate.

Phil Gramms office denied that he had anything to do with writing the section of that bill that actually deregulated energy. And yet Prof. Michael Greenberger, formerly a CFTC board member himself, said that Gramms wife Wendy, along with a few lobbyists and Wall Street attorneys, had rewritten it. When Robert Manor of the Chicago Times wrote about this situation on January 18, 2002, neither Gramm could be reached for comment.

Kill It Before It Multiplies

When Enron failed and took its private, unregulated energy exchange to the grave, another rose to take its place. The Intercontinental Exchange (ICE) was the brainchild of Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, British Petroleum, Deutsche Bank, Dean Witter, Royal Dutch Shell, SG Investment Bank and Totalfina. In 2001 ICE purchased the International Petroleum Exchange in London; renamed ICE Futures, it now operates as an "exempt commercial market" under section 2(H)(3) of the Commodity Exchange Act. As the Senate hearings pointed out in the summer of 2006, "Both markets operate outside of any CFTC oversight."

If you reread the quotes at the start of this story again, you find that many officials in the government warned against what would happen in a deregulated energy market, because it was so easy to manipulate. We already know this to be true thanks to Enrons California misdeeds. And, as we pointed out last week, British Petroleum was busted for manipulating the propane market and fined over $300 million; and Amaranth Partners was caught manipulating the natural gas market, unconscionably causing the futures price for natural gas to raise every Texans electric bills. (It took two years for Amaranth to be exposed.) And yes, the manipulation happened in the new "dark" and unregulated exchanges, making it almost impossible to uncover. So its not a question of "if" some "theoretically possible" manipulation and distortion of the market will result from this bill, championed by Phil Gramm, his wife Wendy and Christine Delays employer, Alexander Strategies. The reason it is not theoretical is because we keep catching well-known companies doing it on a regular basis.

No Conscience in Congress?

All you hear daily is that the world has a severe shortage of oil, or you can buy only 200 pounds of rice at one time, or we will have a gasoline crisis this summer, etc. But it takes only a minute to find hundreds of quotes from highly respected oil and economic analysts, (not to mention CEOs of the major oil companies), that completely dismiss the claim of oil, gas or food shortages that have been headlining the news.

Even more troubling is that within months of the CFMAs going into effect, we knew it had enabled easy manipulation of any energy market, but nothing was done to fix it. Nor was anything done when the Senate held its hearings on this matter in 2006, or in the House hearings last December.

Today we call this situation the "Enron Loophole," but thats untrue. Its not a loophole: it was a new law passed in 2000  and far more individuals than Ken Lay have used that law to line their pockets with hundreds of billions of American consumers hard-earned dollars. Thats not my opinion, thats direct testimony by numerous experts before both the House and Senate.

Professor Greenberger warned about our "New American Economy" far better than I could:

"Should we have an economy thats based on whether people make good or bad bets? Or should we have an economy where people build companies, create manufacturing, do inventions, advance the American society and make it more productive? We are rewarding people for sitting at their computers and punching in bets. Thats not the way our economy is going to be built, and India and China, with their focus on science and industry and building real businesses, are going to eat our lunch, unless the American public wakes up and puts an end to an economy that praises and makes heroes out of speculators."

Greenbergers statement explains why Detroit and other American manufacturers suffer while Wall Street speculators make a fortune  and your rapidly shrinking checkbook pays for it, every time you buy food, fuel or feed.

All because there is no shortage of these goods, youre just being told there is because its more profitable  for a few  that way.

© 2008 Ed Wallace

Ed Wallace is a recipient of the Gerald R. Loeb Award for business journalism, given by the Anderson School of Business at UCLA, and is a member of the American Historical Society. He reviews new cars every Friday morning at 7:15 on Fox Fours Good Day, contributes articles to BusinessWeek Online and hosts the talk show, Wheels, 8:00 to 1:00 Saturdays on 570 KLIF. E-mail: wheels570@sbcglobal.net


Everybody was warned; thats probably why this deregulation bill was stealthily inserted into that appropriations bill without a floor debate.
 

So much for supply & demand....  rolleyes
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Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2008, 09:40:13 AM »
Yup.  Reducing MPG.

When Manedwolf posted his beloved Accord's mileage ratings, the first thing that came to my mind was that my wife's old Datsun B-210 did better.   undecided
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2008, 10:33:22 AM »
Yup.  Reducing MPG.

When Manedwolf posted his beloved Accord's mileage ratings, the first thing that came to my mind was that my wife's old Datsun B-210 did better.   undecided
An accord is larger, heavier, safer, more powerful, and more comfortable than that old Datsun.

Mileage could be improved significantly by stripping down any of our current production vehicles.  Take Maned's Accord and pull out 1,000 pounds of "unnecessary" reinforcing steel, engine size, emission's controls, safety equipment, power steering, power brakes, power windows and locks, comfy seats, and all the other stuff that modern cars have.  Shrink it down until 6 foot whatever drivers can't fit in it.  What you'd be left with is an underpowered, flimsy, crude vehicle (like a Datsun B-210) that still gets good gas mileage.

Even the cheapest, most stripped-down economy cars made today (Corollas, Civics, Kias, and so forth) are stronger, safer, and more powerful than that old Datsun.  People have decided that having a solid vehicle with a real engine and lots of features is worth a little bit of lost efficiency.

Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2008, 11:54:51 AM »
I actually liked the B-210, and in particular my old Ford Fiesta.  They were simple, with no electronic engine management, no electric tushy-wipers, no power windows, and all the things that cost bucks to fix. I'd buy another one in a heartbeat, if I could just find examples that don't garner collector's prices.

Which is also why I drive a GSA schedule S-10 with a 5-speed stick, bench seat, and manual windows.  Wink

Give me another 20 years and I'll go for the cushy ride, and I'll trade in my Shovelhead for a Goldwing, too.  (NOT)

You'd think with the tushy-wiperness of current vehicles, they could still approach MPG figures from imports of the late 1970s.  The extra weight is a factor, as is our typical American sloth. 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2008, 12:16:52 PM »
Much of the extra weight and complexity of current cars isn't due to sloth or laziness or folks wanting "tushy-wiper" features.  A lot of the electronics and added weight and reduced fuel economy can be laid at the feet of Big Brother.  Safety equipment, emissions equipment, crash-worthiness, on and on.  It's a wonder Congress doesn't just design our cars themselves and cut out the middle men.

If you sold new-production Datsun B210s today, or any equivalent type of car, the government would shut you down.

There are some cars that come close, though.  Corollas are reputed to deliver 40 mpg.  (I wonder what it would get with a few hundred pounds of safety and exhaust components removed?)  And you can even get one without power windows and locks, if you really want.