Author Topic: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.  (Read 27123 times)

agricola

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2008, 12:49:16 PM »
The view from across the pond:

i) drilling for more oil, or increasing our refinery capacity, is not the answer, any more than that "last pack" of cigarettes is the answer to smoking too much;
ii) the next couple of decades will need to see political leaders make the replacement of petroleum (and its various distillations) as an energy source, and the entire society that exists around it, their #1 priority;
iii) until someone develops a cleaner, more reliable source of energy (ie: fusion) nuclear + some renewables is the only game in town that does not cause more problems (biofuels being possibly even worse than regular gasoline given the impact on world food prices);
iv) there needs to be far more investment in public transport - rail remains by some distance the most economical means of getting from A to B, yet (at least in the UK, which is madness because it is quicker to get to Liverpool, Manchester, or even Paris, by train than to fly) there seems to be a lot more focus on air travel;
vi) where is the big reward

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Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2008, 01:23:47 PM »
That's a darned good analogy - "That last pack of cigarettes".

I've been meaning to take weekly or monthly pictures of our local GMC dealership's lot, to see how much inventory actually gets sold.  There's more activity washing and waxing the big ass-wagons on that lot than there is selling them, it seems.

Looking at a new Chevy Aveo or Toyota Yaris, I'm of the opinion that lightweight economy cars aren't too much of a stretch for 2008 technology...

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taurusowner

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2008, 02:38:35 PM »
I don't think the planet will run out of oil in the next 10, 100, or even 1000 years.  That's the fundamental differance on this issue.  The Eco-nazis have been screaming "peak oil" for 50 years(and others screamed it before that), and some people have kept believing them for 50 years.  It doesn't matter that they have been, and continue to be, wrong in every way.

HankB

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2008, 03:55:05 AM »
As I see it there are three major reasons for the increase we're seeing in gasoline prices . . . here's a Cliff's Notes capsule summary:

1. Increased demand from Eastern Europe, China, and India helps to drive up prices.

2. The falling dollar increases the prices of all imports, including oil. Even though oil is pegged to the dollar in most places (I believe only Venezuela and Iran are pricing theirs in euros) the oil sheiks aren't complete idiots, they KNOW that the $ is falling due to deficit spending, falling interest rates, and mismanagement of the money supply. The GOP bears a lot of responsibility for this, but the Dems are in there, too.

3. It's no coincidence that gas prices have risen over 60% since the congress changed hands - because speculators KNOW that under the Reid/Pelosi regieme, there will be obstacles to wind farms, NO drilling in ANWR, NO new drilling offshore or in the Gulf (That's reserverd for China/Cuba), NO new coal mining or gasification, NO new nuke plants, NO new refineries built, NO new hydropower plants, NO new coal plants . . . an enduring, dependable, Democratic Party energy policy based on NO - NO - NO. And with all three major Presidential candidates - Hillary Clinton, Barack Hussein Obama, and John McCain - having partaken of the Global Warming Kool-Aid, these "NO" policies will be set in stone for the forseeable future, making for a potential bonanza in the oil futures market.

We've only seen the BEGINNING of the damage to our economy that the Global Warming charlatans are planning - get ready for even more fun.  angry
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MicroBalrog

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2008, 03:59:44 AM »
*ponders digging out the old Soviet Invalidka cars*
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Manedwolf

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2008, 05:09:19 AM »
That's a darned good analogy - "That last pack of cigarettes".

I've been meaning to take weekly or monthly pictures of our local GMC dealership's lot, to see how much inventory actually gets sold.  There's more activity washing and waxing the big ass-wagons on that lot than there is selling them, it seems.

Looking at a new Chevy Aveo or Toyota Yaris, I'm of the opinion that lightweight economy cars aren't too much of a stretch for 2008 technology...

A radio interview recently mentioned that large SUVs have absolutely no trade-in value no matter how much luxury fluff they have. That the most someone was offered in trade-in for a new Lincoln Aviator with every option was $14k (if they put it towards a new $39K+ vehicle), after absolutely no interest for a sale. And that people who have them are entirely upside-down on what they're still paying on them as a result. Can't get rid of them, can't afford to drive them.

roo_ster

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2008, 07:47:28 AM »
i) drilling for more oil, or increasing our refinery capacity, is not the answer, any more than that "last pack" of cigarettes is the answer to smoking too much;
It surely part of the answer in the short & mid term (say up to 50+ years out).

Petroleum-derived fuels are still the best & most economical way to move automobiles, especially after one factors in the costs of the subsidies ($051-$1.00/gal) congresscritters vomit forth onto the ethanol lobby constituents.

Increasing supply will have an effect on the price point.

ii) the next couple of decades will need to see political leaders make the replacement of petroleum (and its various distillations) as an energy source, and the entire society that exists around it, their #1 priority;
That is a formula for economic catastrophe not seen since Stalin's "Five Year Plans" and Mao's similar wealth-destroying collectivist fantasies.

The best thing gov't can do is get the hell outta the way and let the market make the call & eventual switch.  For instance, COTUS subsidizes corn ethanol, about the most sand-poundingly stupid way to produce fuel ethanol.  All the while, they set up quotas on cane sugar and Brazilian-produced ethanol: sources that might make ethanol a viable alternative to gasoline.

When it comes to energy, government is the problem and more of it will only make it worse.

iii) until someone develops a cleaner, more reliable source of energy (ie: fusion) nuclear + some renewables is the only game in town that does not cause more problems (biofuels being possibly even worse than regular gasoline given the impact on world food prices);
I am all for the nukes.

I also want to see a whole lot of coal-fired power plants built, since the USA has enough coal to keep the electricity flowing for a LONG time.  TXU was going to build a couple nat gas plants and a dozen coal-fired plants...until the Ususal Suspects started caterwauling. Eventually, TXU said "screw it, were getting outta the energy business" and sold themselve to some other company.  Good luck to 'em.

iv) there needs to be far more investment in public transport - rail remains by some distance the most economical means of getting from A to B, yet (at least in the UK, which is madness because it is quicker to get to Liverpool, Manchester, or even Paris, by train than to fly) there seems to be a lot more focus on air travel;
Outside the super-dense cities in America, the words, "Public Transport," are synonymous with "Unused Money Pit."
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agricola

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2008, 08:15:15 AM »
Quote from: jfruser
It surely part of the answer in the short & mid term (say up to 50+ years out).

Petroleum-derived fuels are still the best & most economical way to move automobiles, especially after one factors in the costs of the subsidies ($051-$1.00/gal) congresscritters vomit forth onto the ethanol lobby constituents.

Increasing supply will have an effect on the price point.

Yes (though whether it will be as long as fifty years is debateable), but it doesnt solve the problem - it just delays it, or rather it allows us to continue deluding ourselves that everything is ok and we can carry on as we have been for the past forty years.  Does maintaining that delusion justify the billions of dollars cost of new refineries, and the probable environmental damage? 

Biofuels are not the answer either, in addition to the subsidy (which you note) they are just another cash crop for people to plant instead of food. 

Quote from: jfruser
That is a formula for economic catastrophe not seen since Stalin's "Five Year Plans" and Mao's similar wealth-destroying collectivist fantasies.

The best thing gov't can do is get the hell outta the way and let the market make the call & eventual switch.  For instance, COTUS subsidizes corn ethanol, about the most sand-poundingly stupid way to produce fuel ethanol.  All the while, they set up quotas on cane sugar and Brazilian-produced ethanol: sources that might make ethanol a viable alternative to gasoline.

When it comes to energy, government is the problem and more of it will only make it worse.

We will have to make this change at some stage in the reasonably near future - we can either do it now when we can do it gently and in plenty of time, or we can do it against a backdrop of ever rising fuel prices, savage competition between nations for scarce oil, and a general rush towards a solution - any solution, which is usually when really bad things happen.   

As for "the market" making the decision, that is pretty much an impossibility given the scale of the problem and the fact that such a general, unified body does not exist, and large parts of it are in direct opposition to other parts. 

Take the current state of affairs for instance - "the market" hasnt seen fit increase the supply of oil in necessary amounts because it is sitting on a commodity that is only ever going to increase in value.  Why would "the market" - oil companies - act to diminish the value of that commodity by promoting alternate technologies (before their value is close to the value of the original commodity, of course), or by increasing the supply in order to lower the price?   

Quote from: jfruser
I am all for the nukes.

I also want to see a whole lot of coal-fired power plants built, since the USA has enough coal to keep the electricity flowing for a LONG time.  TXU was going to build a couple nat gas plants and a dozen coal-fired plants...until the Ususal Suspects started caterwauling. Eventually, TXU said "screw it, were getting outta the energy business" and sold themselve to some other company.  Good luck to 'em.

Agree with you about the nukes, coal I am less certain about.  Would be better IMHO to focus the cash there on renewables. 

Quote from: jfruser
Outside the super-dense cities in America, the words, "Public Transport," are synonymous with "Unused Money Pit."

Which is why I mentioned the UK perspective - prior to the infamous "Beeching Report" the UK had a massive rail network, the bulk of which was closed because the committee felt (and of course the fact that the chairman was the head of a roadbuilding firm had no bearing on matters) that the road would be a better form of transport for the future. 

Needless to say, widespread local opposition was ignored, the routes were closed and torn up, and now councils in nearly every part of the country are trying to get them back again (with varying degrees of success - in Scotland and Wales (which have devolved government) stations and lines are reopening, but in England central government blocks it, favouring airport expansion).  (edited to add) The main reason for the reinterest in the railways is that passenger numbers have gone through the roof, and the system is approaching capacity.This is mainly due to the Government (since 1997) continuing tp subsidize the various train operating companies (which in itself is an error, they should renationalize it) and allowed them to charge appropriate ticket prices (one of the main reasons for Beeching finding the railways unprofitable was that successive post-war Governments had not allowed BR to increase ticket prices, as an electoral wheeze - so they ran out of money.  It had been reasonably profitable (for a public service) up until then).
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Manedwolf

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2008, 09:43:53 AM »
They're finally cutting public transport here after years of wasting money on "ghost buses" so-called due to the fact that they usually had one or two people on them at most.

agricola

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2008, 10:50:34 AM »
They're finally cutting public transport here after years of wasting money on "ghost buses" so-called due to the fact that they usually had one or two people on them at most.

Cutting buses is something I agree with, they are one of the great devils of the age - something clearly designed by someone who would never, ever have to use one.  However one shouldnt make the mistake of assuming they are the be-all and end-all of public transport.
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MechAg94

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2008, 12:03:26 PM »
We are not going to run out of oil in the near or immediate future.  Why are you in such a panic to replace it all of a sudden?  The price of gasoline right now is not due to anyone "running out" of oil.  Besides, if we are going to replace it eventually, why worry about using as much of it as we can.  Smiley  I would also point out that any replacement will most likely have pollution issues of its own. 

IMO, they have made some strides in alternative fuels in the last 30 years.  Let them keep trying for another 50 years before anyone tries to anoint the successor too early.  If someone actually comes up with something that works physically and economically, it will get a market share all on its own.  The only thing govt should do is provide a few grants here and there for research.

I'd like to see the investment and fuel cost numbers for that public transportation.  All the real numbers I have seen show that rail is a super expensive pipe dream that politicians love to dump money into as their personal trophies.  Not to mention the fact that I and a lot of other people do not live anywhere near a major city center and won't as long as this is a free country. 
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Firethorn

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2008, 12:02:22 PM »
Technically speaking, we'll never run out of oil.  We'll simply run out of oil that's cheaper than the alternatives, at which point oil will be relegated to specialty type uses.

It's kinda like how there's more recoverable oil 'reserves' at $130 a barrel as compared to $70/barrel.  It's actually economical at the higher price to go after more difficult deposits, not to mention things like oil sands and shales.  Modified of course, by political concerns, conservatism in that I'm not going to sink $$$ into a new well until I'm SURE that oil isn't going to drop back down to, say, $80/barrel when I NEED $100 to make a profit.  Then lead times, etc...

Personally, I'm looking into electric or diesel.  Most of my travel is highway(65mph), and 30-45 miles.  So, I figure an electric vehicle with a max speed of at least 75mph and a range of ~150 miles would be good.  Diesel because it does well on highway mileage, despite it's currently higher price, and I see it having a brighter future than ethanol.

Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2008, 08:22:01 PM »
A related question:

The news reported that Americans drove approximately 4.3% less this last Memorial Day Weekend than the previous year.  That's 11 billion fewer miles driven, and X amount fewer gallons of gas consumed.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/26/gas.driving/index.html

At what point does the whole supply & demand thing kick in when consumers are using less of a given commodity?  I would've figured there would be at least a slight dip in gas prices after seeing the figures reported above...
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Firethorn

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2008, 05:35:40 AM »
Quote
At what point does the whole supply & demand thing kick in when consumers are using less of a given commodity?  I would've figured there would be at least a slight dip in gas prices after seeing the figures reported above...

It's complicated, of course, but one DAY of 4.3% less consumption for the USA only will have negligable effects.

In no particular order, various things keeping oil/gas prices high:
1.  China and India.  Their industrial revolution is advancing daily.  The numbers of cars, mopeds, motorcycles, etc...  Are all increasing in double digit percentages.  Oil usage is skyrocketing there.  US citizens driving a little less can't overwhelm this.
2.  Many oil fields are loosing production.  They are becoming 'tapped' out, fewer barrels can be pulled each day, and not enough new fields are replacing them.  The new fields are more expensive, requiering advanced and expensive techniques to tap
3.  Average fleet mileage of US vehicles is still down compared to what it was historically.  It's going to take a while to get all the gas guzzeling SUVs off the street.
4.  Saudi manipulation.  Yes, once the Saudis decide that they like $130 oil, they'll reduce production to keep it there.  Still, the uptick they don't like because it promotes finding alternatives.

charby

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2008, 05:51:01 AM »
from http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91211-1317363,00.html

Quote
A source at Opec said its 13 members were uncomfortable with the current price of crude, which last week hit a record $135 a barrel.

Based on present supply and demand, he said it should be fetching $60-$70 a barrel.

Saudi Arabia said it would increase production.

I really think its the speculators jacking the price of oil up, trying to keep from loosing money on a weaker dollar. Farmer buddy told me same thing about grain prices.

I wish I knew what the next item they are going to go after so I can invest early.
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roo_ster

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2008, 06:06:45 AM »
It's complicated, of course, but one DAY of 4.3% less consumption for the USA only will have negligable effects.

In no particular order, various things keeping oil/gas prices high:
1.  China and India.  Their industrial revolution is advancing daily.  The numbers of cars, mopeds, motorcycles, etc...  Are all increasing in double digit percentages.  Oil usage is skyrocketing there.  US citizens driving a little less can't overwhelm this.

IIRC, thier use has been stagnant or dropping the last year.

2.  Many oil fields are loosing production.  They are becoming 'tapped' out, fewer barrels can be pulled each day, and not enough new fields are replacing them.  The new fields are more expensive, requiering advanced and expensive techniques to tap

I don't know much about this point, but my FIL a land-man for the petroleum industry, has had a whole lot of work.  New fields being explored and old fields re-opening because they are now profitable. 

3.  Average fleet mileage of US vehicles is still down compared to what it was historically.  It's going to take a while to get all the gas guzzeling SUVs off the street.

The 4.3% drop is not just one day.  It has been a trend for several months.

4.  Saudi manipulation.  Yes, once the Saudis decide that they like $130 oil, they'll reduce production to keep it there.  Still, the uptick they don't like because it promotes finding alternatives.

The inner workings of the Saudis & OPEC are somewhat byzantine.





There are a couple other factors:
1. Gasoline reserves had SPIKED a month or two back, so the refineries reduced output to keep gasoline prices inflated
2. Refineries are in the process of switching from winter to summer formulations as well as maintenance.  They are curently only working at 80% of capacity.









Regards,

roo_ster

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Manedwolf

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2008, 06:43:02 AM »
The inner workings of the Saudis & OPEC are somewhat byzantine.

That's an incredibly ironic and insensitive metaphor, if you know your history. cheesy


mtnbkr

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2008, 07:30:44 AM »
I wish I knew what the next item they are going to go after so I can invest early.

I was listening to NPR yesterday afternoon and they compared the Whey market to the current oil one.  Whey as a protein source was "discovered" by manufacturers and went from "trash" to "treasure", attracting investors.  The price got so high, manufacturers found other source of protein and started using less whey.  The price has since plummeted.

Chris

Manedwolf

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2008, 07:47:41 AM »
I wish I knew what the next item they are going to go after so I can invest early.

I was listening to NPR yesterday afternoon and they compared the Whey market to the current oil one.  Whey as a protein source was "discovered" by manufacturers and went from "trash" to "treasure", attracting investors.  The price got so high, manufacturers found other source of protein and started using less whey.  The price has since plummeted.

Chris

I can see the overheard conversation to the broker on that one.

"No whey!"

Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2008, 09:56:33 AM »
Yeah, I was going to say the 4.3% drop in consumption wasn't just one day's worth. 

I took a picture of the local GMC dealer's lot today.  I'll do the same a few weeks from now, just for comparison's sake.

We're getting rid of our company Silverado next week, and buying a 5-cylinder Canyon.  The owner feels the pinch, even though the vehicle is a tax write-off. 
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mtnbkr

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2008, 10:02:14 AM »
Will the fuel savings of the Canyon offset the purchase price? 

Chris

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2008, 12:05:25 PM »
Depends on what engine/tranny config.

A 2008 model 1/2 ton Silverado with the 5.3L V8 gets 15/20/17 (city/hwy/overall) MPG.

The 2008 Colorado with the 3.7L I5 gets 16/22/18 MPG.

Sure he just didn't want a new truck?
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Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2008, 01:15:11 PM »
I neglected to mention, it's not a baseline Silverado.  Our company pickup is a 2007 4x4 Z-71 quad-cab, 5.3L V8, vs. the more plain-vanilla I5 Canyon. I'm trying to talk him into a 4-cylinder Canyon, but we haul a lot of steel and aluminum stock and finished parts in this truck, as well as replacement parts for our big machining centers.  We also have a large motorcycle/garden tractor trailer for company use, so the replacement truck needs to move that without straining, too.  I know, one cannot have one's cake and eat it...  undecided 
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HankB

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2008, 01:21:12 PM »
The inner workings of the Saudis & OPEC are somewhat byzantine.
That's an incredibly ironic and insensitive metaphor, if you know your history. cheesy
Personally, I liked it.  cool
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Waitone

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2008, 03:45:03 PM »
There is a difference between the futures price for a barrel of oil and the delivered price for a barrel of oil.  Our lazy, sloven media goes for the easiest data to access having the greatest emotional and political punch.  Hence the use of futures prices.  My problem is the media says nothing about the difference between the two.

More and more information is surfacing which points to a huge financial bubble in oil prices.   
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