Author Topic: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.  (Read 27120 times)

Sergeant Bob

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #75 on: May 29, 2008, 05:00:13 PM »

More and more information is surfacing which points to a huge financial bubble in oil prices.   

Careful their buster! You're dangerously close to copyright infringement with that "bubble in oil" comment.

I have the copyrights to oil bubble©  grin
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Perd Hapley

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #76 on: May 29, 2008, 07:50:23 PM »
Quote from: agricola
Why would "the market" - oil companies - act to diminish the value of that commodity by promoting alternate technologies (before their value is close to the value of the original commodity, of course), or by increasing the supply in order to lower the price?   


Are you saying that oil companies are their own market?  That makes no sense.  But neither do many other things you're saying, except from an authoritarian, collectivist perspective in which govt drives, manages and directs our use of natural resources. 

Oil companies have no obligation to look at alternate sources of energy, unless their owners/investors demand it.  That's why we call them "oil companies," rather than "those companies that are in charge of making sure I have any source of energy which interests me." 

Overall, of course, you are demanding that politicians solve our energy problems.  This seems to imply that you want to live in subjection to govt. intervention, rather than in freedom.  Of course, it also suggests that you want the problem to be solved as slowly, inefficiently and painfully as possible. 
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agricola

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2008, 04:56:21 AM »
Quote from: agricola
Why would "the market" - oil companies - act to diminish the value of that commodity by promoting alternate technologies (before their value is close to the value of the original commodity, of course), or by increasing the supply in order to lower the price?   


Are you saying that oil companies are their own market?  That makes no sense.  But neither do many other things you're saying, except from an authoritarian, collectivist perspective in which govt drives, manages and directs our use of natural resources. 

Oil companies have no obligation to look at alternate sources of energy, unless their owners/investors demand it.  That's why we call them "oil companies," rather than "those companies that are in charge of making sure I have any source of energy which interests me." 

Overall, of course, you are demanding that politicians solve our energy problems.  This seems to imply that you want to live in subjection to govt. intervention, rather than in freedom.  Of course, it also suggests that you want the problem to be solved as slowly, inefficiently and painfully as possible. 

No, I am saying (as you acknowledge in the second paragraph) that Oil companies will not be lowering the price anytime soon - why would they when they are making immense profits as a result of this hike? 

As for "This seems to imply that you want to live in subjection to govt. intervention, rather than in freedom", I do not believe that freedom is defined as allowing a load of huge companies to exploit you.  Your point about "you want the problem to be solved as slowly, inefficiently and painfully as possible", is of course so deeply wrong as to be laughable.
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Ben

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2008, 05:13:50 AM »
Quote
why would they when they are making immense profits as a result of this hike? 

Just to point out, the immense profits the oil companies are making are in raw dollars, not percent net profit. Net profit is on the order of 10%, compared to companies like Apple and Google, that have been making 50-300% net profit recently. Or for a sector comparison, Gushan Environmental (biodiesel maker) made a 33% net profit last quarter -- much higher than dino-fuel providers.

One of the main reasons oil company profits are "obscene" (as quoted in the press and in Congress) is because everyone and their brother is buying gasoline and fuel.
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charby

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2008, 06:13:29 AM »
I wish I knew what the next item they are going to go after so I can invest early.

I was listening to NPR yesterday afternoon and they compared the Whey market to the current oil one.  Whey as a protein source was "discovered" by manufacturers and went from "trash" to "treasure", attracting investors.  The price got so high, manufacturers found other source of protein and started using less whey.  The price has since plummeted.

Chris

I'm starting to think it is going to be coal. Research coal to anhydrous ammonia and ammonia as a fuel. Also look what the anhydrous ammonia prices from last year to this year.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2008, 01:47:29 PM »
No, I am saying (as you acknowledge in the second paragraph) that Oil companies will not be lowering the price anytime soon - why would they when they are making immense profits as a result of this hike? 

I know what your point was.  I simply pointed out that you made it in a way that seems to indicate a fundamental misapprehension of basic economics.  Again, "the market" for energy is not "oil companies." 

The market are those buying oil (in this case).  When someone like jfruser talks about "the market" solving a problem, they mean that buyers will reward those who offer better value, better efficiency, etc.  It is not Exxon that we look to, to provide alternative energy or lower prices.  Rather, it is a market place that rewards Exxon or anyone else who gives us more go for our dough. 

You also seem confused about how sellers decide to price their goods.  High prices don't always indicate high profits.     

Quote
As for "This seems to imply that you want to live in subjection to govt. intervention, rather than in freedom", I do not believe that freedom is defined as allowing a load of huge companies to exploit you.

Exploit me?  They're not exploiting me.  They're mining, refining and selling petroleum products, so that I don't have to.  I don't like the prices, either, but I haven't lost my head and started whining and exaggerating about it.

Quote
Your point about "you want the problem to be solved as slowly, inefficiently and painfully as possible", is of course so deeply wrong as to be laughable.
Oh.  I thought it was just the lesson painfully learned by all who have waited for govt. to improve the economic situation, by infringing the rights of those mean rich people. 
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Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2008, 03:30:41 PM »
Did anybody notice the GM bought out/retired 19000 workers this week?  I expect Ford and Chrysler to do the same in the not-too-distant future...
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agricola

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2008, 08:59:39 PM »
I know what your point was.  I simply pointed out that you made it in a way that seems to indicate a fundamental misapprehension of basic economics.  Again, "the market" for energy is not "oil companies."

The market are those buying oil (in this case).  When someone like jfruser talks about "the market" solving a problem, they mean that buyers will reward those who offer better value, better efficiency, etc.  It is not Exxon that we look to, to provide alternative energy or lower prices.  Rather, it is a market place that rewards Exxon or anyone else who gives us more go for our dough.

It isnt, unless you have found a way to run your petrol-powered car on solar power.   

Quote
You also seem confused about how sellers decide to price their goods.  High prices don't always indicate high profits.

It doesnt always mean that, but it does seem to be true now:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7372509.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7377812.stm     

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Manedwolf

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2008, 09:41:39 PM »
Did anybody notice the GM bought out/retired 19000 workers this week?  I expect Ford and Chrysler to do the same in the not-too-distant future...

I would expect production of SUVs that get under 15mpg to be severely cut, if not stopped. As of now, saleswise, cranking them out makes as much sense as continuing to shovel coal into a furnace that has gone out.

Perd Hapley

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #84 on: May 31, 2008, 05:44:43 AM »
I know what your point was.  I simply pointed out that you made it in a way that seems to indicate a fundamental misapprehension of basic economics.  Again, "the market" for energy is not "oil companies."

The market are those buying oil (in this case).  When someone like jfruser talks about "the market" solving a problem, they mean that buyers will reward those who offer better value, better efficiency, etc.  It is not Exxon that we look to, to provide alternative energy or lower prices.  Rather, it is a market place that rewards Exxon or anyone else who gives us more go for our dough.

It isnt, unless you have found a way to run your petrol-powered car on solar power.   


You mean the market isn't eliminating all problems immediately, so we will have a perfect world, and you will always be perfectly happy and content?  Who'd a thunk it?   rolleyes   I'm sorry, the lack of solar-powered cars on the street isn't much of a response.  I also note that the state isn't providing us all with solar cars, either. 
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Manedwolf

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #85 on: May 31, 2008, 08:34:43 AM »
IMO, solar is a nonstarter until they get to the level of nantotech solar-cell paint they're talking about, and until it's as cheap as regular paint. (The micromachines collect and pass miniscule charges bucket-brigade-style to a terminal, but it's still only a mostly theoretical prototype).

Yeah, the sun is up there. But current solar tech is extremely expensive, and doesn't even capture a fraction of what is hitting it as useable energy.

Firethorn

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2008, 10:17:52 AM »
doesn't even capture a fraction of what is hitting it as useable energy.

Wouldn't matter; if the stuff was as cheap as tar paper per square foot even existing efficiency levels would be sufficient to make people install it left and right.  Instead it's $50-60 per square foot, which renders it 'special purpose', 'people who can't do math', or 'don't care about the economicability'.

Of course, I live in ND.  I think that I'll wait until 50% of homes south of the Mason-dixon line have panels, 80-90% of california, etc...  At that point the math will probably make sense.

Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2008, 09:53:07 AM »
Well, they'd better hurry up and drill the ANWR.  GM announced today that the Janesville truck and SUV assembly plant will be shut down, plus three others.

Is it 1974 again?   rolleyes 
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Manedwolf

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2008, 09:58:10 AM »
I'm not surprised GM had to shut those down. Did you see the latest Escalade commercial?

"Seats seven!" (while being driven by ONE GUY) "Big, bold and beautiful, dripping with chrome."

It was one step from the 6000 SUX commercial.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #89 on: June 03, 2008, 10:19:30 AM »
Why is GM still in business...?

fallingblock

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #90 on: June 04, 2008, 08:42:35 PM »
But Agricola....

For you to write this:

Quote
As for "This seems to imply that you want to live in subjection to govt. intervention, rather than in freedom", I do not believe that freedom is defined as allowing a load of huge companies to exploit you.  Your point about "you want the problem to be solved as slowly, inefficiently and painfully as possible", is of course so deeply wrong as to be laughable.

suggests that you've already forgotten the example of "Government solutions" you gave:

Quote
Which is why I mentioned the UK perspective - prior to the infamous "Beeching Report" the UK had a massive rail network, the bulk of which was closed because the committee felt (and of course the fact that the chairman was the head of a roadbuilding firm had no bearing on matters) that the road would be a better form of transport for the future.

Needless to say, widespread local opposition was ignored, the routes were closed and torn up, and now councils in nearly every part of the country are trying to get them back again (with varying degrees of success - in Scotland and Wales (which have devolved government) stations and lines are reopening, but in England central government blocks it, favouring airport expansion).  (edited to add) The main reason for the reinterest in the railways is that passenger numbers have gone through the roof, and the system is approaching capacity.This is mainly due to the Government (since 1997) continuing tp subsidize the various train operating companies (which in itself is an error, they should renationalize it) and allowed them to charge appropriate ticket prices (one of the main reasons for Beeching finding the railways unprofitable was that successive post-war Governments had not allowed BR to increase ticket prices, as an electoral wheeze - so they ran out of money.  It had been reasonably profitable (for a public service) up until then).

LadySmith

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2008, 11:50:08 PM »
I'm not surprised GM had to shut those down. Did you see the latest Escalade commercial?

"Seats seven!" (while being driven by ONE GUY) "Big, bold and beautiful, dripping with chrome."

It was one step from the 6000 SUX commercial.

 laugh cheesy

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The Annoyed Man

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #92 on: June 05, 2008, 07:32:20 AM »
Quote
I simply pointed out that you made it in a way that seems to indicate a fundamental misapprehension of basic economics.  Again, "the market" for energy is not "oil companies."

The market are those buying oil (in this case).  When someone like jfruser talks about "the market" solving a problem, they mean that buyers will reward those who offer better value, better efficiency, etc.  It is not Exxon that we look to, to provide alternative energy or lower prices.  Rather, it is a market place that rewards Exxon or anyone else who gives us more go for our dough.

You also seem confused about how sellers decide to price their goods.  High prices don't always indicate high profits.     

Any 'misapprehension of basic economics' is entirely yours.  There is no so-called 'free market'.  It is a myth.   'Markets' are a creation of government, as are corporations, and both are accountable to the same (IOW, 'We the People').   The reason that we have record oil & gas prices, along with record oil company profits, is because government (which is supposed to represent 'We the People') has been sold  to multinational corporations-the modern versions of the robber barons of the Industrial Revolution.   You've heard of the Industrial Revolution?  That time between 1880 and The Great Depression?  7 day workweeks, sweatshops, child labor, dangerous work conditions, etc.  No middle class, only poor and the very wealthy.

All that changed as a result of the Great Depression (the inevitable result of a corporate dominated society) and the policies of FDR, who singlehandedly recreated the most prosperous middle class in history.  Until RR came along and began to dismantle it once again with his voodoo economics.  'Give bidness big tax breaks and get the gubmint off their backs'  he said.  'Bidness will invest that new found money and everyone will prosper as a result of the new jobs and economic boom tax cuts will create'.
But that didn't happen, did it?  Instead 'bidness' put the money in their pockets and looked for even more ways to increase profits.  They took that 'prosperity' overseas where they could benefit once again from sweatshop labor conditions.

American worker's productivity increases every year while wages decline.  The rich get richer as the middle class disappears.  We've gone from the world's largest creditor nation in the 1970's to the world's largest debtor nation today.  We borrow trillions of dollars from the Chinese, Arabs, Japanese to give to private 'corporations' for phony 'wars'.   We manufacture nearly nothing in this country.  We buy cheap plastic crap from China as fast as we can get it here.  And it goes on and on.

Wake up.  This government doesn't represent your/our interests, and hasn't since the 1980's.  And if you think the election of McCain or Obama is gonna change anything you're in for a helluva long wait as our standard of living continues to deteriorate.  But, as long as you've got the bread and circuses, sportsteams and Walmart, everything is A-OK, right?   Sheesh.

Ex-MA Hole

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #93 on: June 05, 2008, 11:26:35 AM »
Ah, back to normalcy.

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Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #94 on: June 05, 2008, 12:54:22 PM »
Quote
Riley, I've missed you.

Oh, please.  Stop lying.   grin
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Gewehr98

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Re: President Bush is right, but I see no action on lowering oil prices.
« Reply #95 on: June 15, 2008, 03:34:22 PM »
From this week's Isthmus paper:

"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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