Author Topic: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities  (Read 8131 times)

De Selby

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2008, 06:24:51 PM »

The "sunni vs. shia" war is a nonstarter; very few people recognize a distinction in terms of party membership, and outside of some localized areas in the middle east, there is no "battle between sunni and shia".  It's not even equivalent to protestants and Catholics-more like bible doctrine debates between evangelicals.

I seem to notice that plenty of people all over have a problem with the whole sunni vs. shia thing.

It would be a mistake to chalk up the highly localized conflicts in places like Lebanon and Pakistan to religious differences-the issue there is identity, not theology, and the battle lines are drawn accordingly...with secular/atheist members of the traditionally *expletive deleted*it communities lining up behind the religious parties, and vice versa. 

The Islamfortoday piece is fairly exemplary of how most view the situation from a religious perspective-you might want to read the parts that say things like this:

Quote
Sunnis and Shias agree on the core fundamentals of Islam - the Five Pillars - and recognize each others as Muslims.  In 1959 Sheikh Mahmood Shaltoot, Head of the School of Theology at Al Azhar university in Cairo, the most august seat of learning of Sunni Islam and the oldest university in the world, issued a fatwa (ruling) recognizing the legitimacy of the Jafari School of Law to which most Shias belong. As a point of interest, the Jafari School  is named after its founder Imam Jafaf Sidiq who was a direct descendent through two different lines of the Sunni Caliph Abu Bakr.  And Al Azhar University, though now Sunni, was actually founded by the Shia Fatimid dynasty in 969CE.

and

Quote
2) The Ja'fari school of thought, which is also known as "al-Shia al- Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" (i.e., The Twelver Imami Shi'ites) is a school of thought that is religiously correct to follow in worship as are other Sunni schools of thought. Muslims must know this, and ought to refrain from unjust prejudice to any particular school of thought, since the religion of Allah and His Divine Law (Shari'ah) was never restricted to a particular school of thought. Their jurists (Mujtahidoon) are accepted by Almighty Allah, and it is permissible to the "non-Mujtahid" to follow them and to accord with their teaching whether in worship (Ibadaat) or transactions (Mu'amilaat).

Signed, Mahmood Shaltoot.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008, 06:30:22 PM »
A point I don't know if anyone's made yet:

Let's take a look at some of the craziest, Christian fundamentalists I can think of, and their history.

First off, I 'll acknowledge that this country was founded by them.  Notice something about the pilgrims, puritans, etc.
They wanted to be left alone, so they came here to be left alone. 

I don't see that from fundamentalist muslims.  They want to kill people who aren't like them, even other muslims.

Now, take some of the craziest fundamentalists today.  I don't see nearly as many wanting to kill people who arent christian enough, or christian at all.


And yes, I'm biased.  I don't like Islam as it's practiced in many places outside of America, espically in many parts of the Middle east.


Firstly, I'll note that you are using the term fundamentalist somewhat inadvisedly. 

Secondly, just based on past convo's, are you an atheist?  If so, this may be the first time a conservative Evangelical has ever reminded an atheist of the nasty business conducted by "Christians" during Crusades, witch-trials, various inquisitions and persecutions, etc.   smiley
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Nitrogen

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 06:39:12 PM »
Not an Athiest.  Might be an Agnostic on a particularly bad day, but most of my problems are with organized religions, not God himself.  I consider myself Jewish, but used to be far more observant than I am today.

As far as what's been done by Christians in the past, true, but I was speaking of modern day.  I cant think of many modern day Christian orgs that want to slaughter people like I can on the Islamic side.

As far as the whole "Regional conflict" thing, I really don't buy it. Pakistan is on the whole other side of the middle east from Beruit, with Iraq and Iran in the middle.  A regional conflict spanning over 2000 miles?  Where they all have the same thing in common?   I am a firm believer in Occam's Razor, and this doesn't pass that test.
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De Selby

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2008, 06:43:38 PM »
As far as the whole "Regional conflict" thing, I really don't buy it. Pakistan is on the whole other side of the middle east from Beruit, with Iraq and Iran in the middle.  A regional conflict spanning over 2000 miles?  Where they all have the same thing in common?   I am a firm believer in Occam's Razor, and this doesn't pass that test.

It doesn't span two thousand miles, and in Pakistan, the largest factor you are missing is that the minority religious groups speak completely different languages and consider themselves members of different nations for the most part than the Urdu community.  I got to know a Balochi who could not silence himself about the need for a Balochi nation, for example....absolutely no mentioning of religion in any of his rants.

The reason they have Shia/Sunni divides in common is that in the old days, some communities became Shia, and some Sunni, generally based on what that group's leadership chose to do...hence, different ethnic/linguistic groups with different interests also have different religions.  It's not that surprising, nor is it any less simple than the theory you have come up with.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2008, 07:48:54 PM »
Maybe the spate of shootings at Masjids, assaults of Muslims, and the few murders made them uneasy about strangers on campus?

Dude, please provide links. 

Every anti-Muslim act of such a nature has been shouted from the rooftops.  I mean, a baker's dozen synagogues can be festooned with Nazi symbols, and it is at best a local story of hte day.  But, any anti-Muslim acts of simialr magnitude have been national stories.

For the love of Pete, the poor Sikh that was murdered and mistaken for a muslim has been dug up and put on display countless times since his death.  If there was something better with whcih to paint America as Muslim-hating rubes, the MSM would broadcast it far & wide.
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De Selby

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2008, 08:39:34 PM »
Maybe the spate of shootings at Masjids, assaults of Muslims, and the few murders made them uneasy about strangers on campus?

Dude, please provide links. 

Every anti-Muslim act of such a nature has been shouted from the rooftops.  I mean, a baker's dozen synagogues can be festooned with Nazi symbols, and it is at best a local story of hte day.  But, any anti-Muslim acts of simialr magnitude have been national stories.

For the love of Pete, the poor Sikh that was murdered and mistaken for a muslim has been dug up and put on display countless times since his death.  If there was something better with whcih to paint America as Muslim-hating rubes, the MSM would broadcast it far & wide.

That is simply not true-there have been scores of incidents (link above to one database of them) of defacing Muslim religious and community centers-you just think that the same ones are replayed because only one ever makes the news, and that was likely because someone of the wrong religion was shot.

CAIR has been better about recording these incidents in a centralized report:

http://www.cair.com/Portals/0/pdf/2007-Civil-Rights-Report.pdf

The reports of incidents are linked to outside sources, so you don't have to take CAIR's word for it.


Some more incidents, from google:

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=70097

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060818/NEWS/608180329

http://www.nbc6.net/news/8462654/detail.html (This one is included in CAIR's report)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B05EEDB123AF937A15757C0A9629C8B63

http://www.nbc4.com/news/11296305/detail.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-09-mosque-vandalism_x.htm

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/01/another_mosque_.html

And one of the more serious ones here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/766342.html
Quote
Shots were fired at a mosque in Melbourne, Florida as worshippers celebrated the start of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, but no injuries or arrests were reported, authorities said Saturday.

A member of the Islamic Society of Brevard County stepped outside of the mosque Friday night to use his cell phone when he heard several gunshots, the Melbourne police department said.

The member, who was not immediately identified, took cover behind a wall as several rounds struck the building's south side, police said. He then ran inside and told mosque members, who called police.

It happens-it just makes national headlines so infrequently that many people believe it doesn't.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2008, 10:16:48 PM »
Maybe the spate of shootings at Masjids, assaults of Muslims, and the few murders made them uneasy about strangers on campus?

So they attack a cameraman? Man, you WILL defend any action, won't you. Rationalize, rationalize, rationalize. That is NOT ACCEPTABLE in the US. Not now, not ever. For anyone. Especially in front of all the kids who saw that, especially when it's the people in charge of the school.

Read my last post, will you?

For the record, Maned. If I owned a house, and a strange man infiltrated it and tried to take video, I would be very upset. The idea that is is somehow 'acceptable' for people to invade other people's private property with cameras is downright bizarre.

Everybody cheers when a paparazzi gets beaten up. Why are those people different?
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De Selby

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2008, 10:35:17 PM »
From reading the article, I see a few key features of the incident itself:

1. The cameraman was told that the school did not want him on its property.

2. The school official grabbed the camera, and did not say anything audible on the tape.  The cameraman shouted "hey guys, shoot this! Shoot this!" immediately.

3.  The cops are considering charges against both the news crew, for trespassing, and the school official, for misdemeanor assault.

In what way is this not a straightforward property confrontation? I'm really working hard here to see how this incident is connected to Islamic beliefs or Islam in general, and I just plain do not get it. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Manedwolf

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2008, 03:51:57 AM »
CAIR has been better about recording these incidents in a centralized report:

Like anyone is going to believe a terrorist front group?

De Selby

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2008, 10:40:40 AM »
CAIR has been better about recording these incidents in a centralized report:

Like anyone is going to believe a terrorist front group?

Considering that you don't believe it's necessary to commit even a single act of terrorism to be a "terrorist group", I don't consider it particularly damning that this is your opinion on the group.

Regardless, there are links there to confirm the stories with news agencies-which, I hope, you do not include in the terrorist conspiracy along with La Raza and the Labor Unions.

I would still like to know what this incident has to do with the participants being Muslims-all I see evidence of here is a straightforward confrontation over trespassing with no religious activity, religious principles, or anything of the sort being apparent.  What justifies characterizing this as a "Muslim incident" versus a simple "yet another trespass/altercation in America" incident?

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Nitrogen

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2008, 02:29:04 PM »
Considering that the Liberal Elite like Chuckie Boy Schumer, Dickie Boy Durbin, and Barbera Boxer don't have anything nice to say about CAIR, I'm not sure what to think.

Even the Liberal Anti Defamation League doesn't like them.
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De Selby

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Re: Muslim school officials attack news crew in Twin Cities
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2008, 02:55:07 PM »
Considering that the Liberal Elite like Chuckie Boy Schumer, Dickie Boy Durbin, and Barbera Boxer don't have anything nice to say about CAIR, I'm not sure what to think.

Even the Liberal Anti Defamation League doesn't like them.

That makes sense-CAIR is not a liberal organization, and Muslims overwhelmingly voted for George Bush in the last two elections.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."