Author Topic: Olmert warns of Syria concessions  (Read 15109 times)

MicroBalrog

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Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« on: May 21, 2008, 11:18:14 AM »
 Olmert warns of Syria concessions

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has described peace talks with Syria as "exciting", but warned that they might involve "painful concessions".

"It's always better to talk than shoot," Mr Olmert said, though he did not say what the concessions might be.

Earlier, the two sides revealed that they had begun the talks - the first since 2000 - under Turkish mediation.

Previous negotiations collapsed over a possible withdrawal from the Golan Heights, which Israel occupied in 1967.

Israel and Syria are still technically at war over the area.

New momentum

Mr Olmert's office on Wednesday said the two sides were talking "in good faith and openly".

The prime minister later told journalists that the "negotiations won't be easy".

He noted that previous Israeli leaders had been prepared to make "painful concessions" for peace with Syria.

   
It was reported in April that Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan had been mediating in talks between the two sides.

In a statement on Wednesday, Syria's foreign ministry confirmed that the two countries had "expressed their desire to conduct the talks in goodwill and decided to continue dialogue with seriousness to achieve comprehensive peace".

Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Muallem said Israel had agreed to withdraw from the Golan up to the armistice line of 1967.

Israel has refused to comment on the claim, although a spokesman for Mr Olmert said the current talks were being carried out with the failure of the previous ones in mind, and that the talks had recently gathered momentum.

The US and the EU have welcomed news of the negotiations, and both have praised Turkey's role as facilitator.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he hoped the two parties "will reach a peaceful solution".

Analysts suggest that, in return for any withdrawal, Israel would demand Syria sever its ties with Iran and the Hezbollah group in Lebanon.

However, they add that withdrawal from the Golan would not be popular with Israelis.

The reports of talks in April sparked outrage in the Israeli parliament, where several MPs said they would try to accelerate the passage of a bill requiring any withdrawal from the Golan to be backed by a referendum.

Mr Olmert is currently battling corruption allegations, and the BBC's Katya Adler in Jerusalem says the prime minister's critics believe the confirmation of peace talks may be an attempt to divert some attention from that.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7413657.stm
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Manedwolf

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2008, 11:22:49 AM »
Quote
Analysts suggest that, in return for any withdrawal, Israel would demand Syria sever its ties with Iran and the Hezbollah group in Lebanon.

Of COURSE they'll agree to sever ties.

Publicly.

"All war is deception".

If Olmert believes them, he's a fool.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2008, 11:27:18 AM »
Ollmert is just throwing the Golan under the bus to draw attention away from  the five concurrent criminal investigations against him. Not a good basis for peace.

But we do need peace with Syria, and if we are ever to get it, we'll have to give back the Golan somehow.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Manedwolf

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2008, 11:39:50 AM »
Syria, as it's being run now, would stop publicly funding terrorists long enough to get Golan back. Then they'd hit the reset button, start funding terrorists again, and nothing would change.

Except the fact that they'd have Golan.

You cannot appease people who want to destroy you. They'll just take, and take again, and keep up the same crap.

The only way that'd work is if the leaders of Syria were told that if they started the same sh_t again, their next summit would be a closed-door session with some Mossad commandos, and they'd not be leaving it.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2008, 11:41:58 AM »
They want Israel to give back the Golan Heights? To "give back" something infers that the party receiving is somehow entitled to it. If it was taken in a war which Syria instigated against Israel, I'd say screw them, they have no claim to it. What has Israel gained in any concessions they've made previously?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2008, 11:42:46 AM »
Syria, as it's being run now, would stop publicly funding terrorists long enough to get Golan back. Then they'd hit the reset button, start funding terrorists again, and nothing would change.

Except the fact that they'd have Golan.

You cannot appease people who want to destroy you. They'll just take, and take again, and keep up the same crap.

The only way that'd work is if the leaders of Syria were told that if they started the same sh_t again, their next summit would be a closed-door session with some Mossad commandos, and they'd not be leaving it.


Exactly.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2008, 11:50:09 AM »
Sergeant Bob, Israel is at peace with Jordan and Egypt thanks to successfuly peace treaties.

Additionally, no Israeli administration to date has denied that we intend to eventually give the Golan back. It's just the time hasn't come yet.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

De Selby

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2008, 12:26:01 PM »


The only way that'd work is if the leaders of Syria were told that if they started the same sh_t again, their next summit would be a closed-door session with some Mossad commandos, and they'd not be leaving it.


The last "closed door session" with the Arab impersonating commandos resulted in the ranking officer in charge of the program being killed by Hizbullah roadway security guards. 

The time for waiving the fist to demand everything is over for Israel; A better alternative is to seek democracy and personal freedoms on both sides of the Golan Heights-if the people living in the Golan and in both countries had more of a say in this, it probably would've been settled long ago.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Antibubba

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2008, 08:53:27 PM »
Isn't the Golan and the Jordan River valley the primary source of Israel's fresh water?  There will have to be concessions for that.  As long as the returned territory is thoroughly demilitarized, and that the Syrians understand the incredibly high price of betrayal (a vaporized Damascus, say), it could work.  I think Assad is finally realizing, in his bones, that he could trust an Israeli ally more than an Iraqi or Iranian one, because the Israelis would destroy him only for a very good reason, with their backs to the wall, whereas his fellow Arab neighbors would do it for no reason at all, or for some injustice done five centuries ago.  They might have destroyed Israel decades ago if they didn't distrust and hate each other even more than they do the Israelis.

Then again, being a parliamentary democracy, it'll take years to get a majority government that'll allow any peace with teeth in it.
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Antibubba

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Time for you to turn off Al-Jezeera
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2008, 08:59:58 PM »
shootinstudent said:
Quote
The time for waiving the fist to demand everything is over for Israel

Beg your pardon?  Israel isn't the one constantly threatening total destruction of another country.  Israel isn't the one launching rockets and mortars in the hopes of demolishing an elementary school.  I don't see Jews strapping explosives to their bodies before getting on a crowded bus.

If you are going to hit someone, don't act hurt or surprised when that someone hits back.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2008, 09:00:21 PM »
Update:

So yeah, it's all gone pear-shaped all of a sudden. The media are in a firm belief that Ollmert is doing whatever it is that he is doing with Syria not because of real concern for the country, but because he wants to distract the nation from his five concurrent criminal investigations (as I said yesterday). The headlines are truly berserk  stuff like THE GOLAN AND THE CASH and other such insinuations are everywhere.

The Knesset is discussing a change to the Basic Law that'll demand an 80-40 majority in the Knesset to give the Golan back. Even Meretz [Meretz for the love of God!] are accusing Ollmert of lacking legitimacy to complete the move.

The inhabitants of the Golan Heights are angry beyond description, and I heard their various activists speaking on the radio today, with high-sounding patriotic pitches ("The country is in danger! The People are with us!") and all. People are talking in buses about how "Ollmert is selling the country".

The Syrians in the meanwhile have leaked that it has been agreed that the Golan will be returned, and now the only discussion is the time frames and conditions for a gradual turnover of power.  The government here neither confirms nor denies this.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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De Selby

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Re: Time for you to turn off Al-Jezeera
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2008, 10:46:39 PM »
shootinstudent said:
Quote
The time for waiving the fist to demand everything is over for Israel

Beg your pardon?  Israel isn't the one constantly threatening total destruction of another country.  Israel isn't the one launching rockets and mortars in the hopes of demolishing an elementary school.  I don't see Jews strapping explosives to their bodies before getting on a crowded bus.

If you are going to hit someone, don't act hurt or surprised when that someone hits back.

Wait a second there-that isn't true.  Israel threatens to annihilate its enemies in every conflict-look at what they said about Lebanon in the run up to the 2006 war.  Same for Hamas, Syria, and Iran.  There is more than enough fist shaking in Israel to fill the airwaves of every Arab state in the region.

You should note that the suicide bombing campaign started more than 20 years after the Golan heights were seized, in a war where Israel was clearly the first to shoot (that's why it turned out so well for Israel-the surprise attack wiped out any opposition on day one of the battle.)
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Manedwolf

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Re: Time for you to turn off Al-Jezeera
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2008, 04:06:15 AM »
You should note that the suicide bombing campaign started more than 20 years after the Golan heights were seized, in a war where Israel was clearly the first to shoot (that's why it turned out so well for Israel-the surprise attack wiped out any opposition on day one of the battle.)

First to shoot because THEY HAD A GUN POINTED AT THEIR HEAD in the form of aircraft ready to launch and tank units on the move!

If they weren't about to be attacked, and obviously so, there would have been no war! As it is, they not only beat back the multiple nations who had ganged up on them, they won more territory from the aggressors. And, as an added trivia bit, some Israeli units were still armed with antique Mauser 98Ks. They still won.

Where DO you get your revisionist history? Hamas' media arm?

They're still trying to hide the fact that superior tactics routed a much more powerful multination force, especially in the maneuvers against the Egyptian armor. Because it's an embarrassment. Just like the 1973 Yom Kippur war, when the Arab nations tried again and lost was an embarassement. Like how Syria recently boasted that nothing could get through their state-of-the-art Russian air defense system, then Israel got through undetected and broke their soon-to-be weapons production reactor. It was an embarrassment.

The suicide bombing started out of sheer rage because every time these militarily superior, larger Arab nations tried to gang up on Israel and smash it, they ended up getting their teeth broken and ass handed to them, and lost more land, too. So they went to asymmetrical warfare against civilian populations, as terrorists, the equivalent of a brat going and punching someone's defenseless younger sibling because the sibling their own size keeps repelling their attacks.

Now they supply rockets to people who launch them deliberately into civilian centers. Because that little bit of incoherently flailing rage is all they have left. Every time they try to build a nuke, it gets taken away from them.

That's the facts.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2008, 04:31:35 AM »
Quote
And, as an added trivia bit, some Israeli units were still armed with antique Mauser 98Ks. They still won.

There were some units still using 98K's up until very recently, specifically until they closed the Civil Guard's sniper unit.
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MechAg94

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2008, 06:03:50 AM »
If they give back the Golan Heights, I predict resumption of random shelling of Israeli territory within a year. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

doc2rn

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2008, 06:14:33 AM »
I would give back the Golan with one concession. They remove the muslim dome of the rock from the temple grounds. That would be a fair trade.

Manedwolf

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2008, 06:14:39 AM »
If they give back the Golan Heights, I predict resumption of random shelling of Israeli territory within a year. 

You have to give them time to wreck all the Israeli-built infrastructure first, so the lights don't work, the water doesn't run, and factional violence blows most of the buildings to pocked shells that people steal the windowframes out of. After all, it's not "home" without a few RPG holes, the rattle of AKs and the neighborhood burning pile of tires.

Then they can start shelling Israel again.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2008, 06:32:36 AM »
If they give back the Golan Heights, I predict resumption of random shelling of Israeli territory within a year. 

Did you READ my last post?
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2008, 06:40:50 AM »
shootinstudent =====> grin
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

De Selby

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Re: Time for you to turn off Al-Jezeera
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2008, 09:20:06 PM »
You should note that the suicide bombing campaign started more than 20 years after the Golan heights were seized, in a war where Israel was clearly the first to shoot (that's why it turned out so well for Israel-the surprise attack wiped out any opposition on day one of the battle.)

First to shoot because THEY HAD A GUN POINTED AT THEIR HEAD in the form of aircraft ready to launch and tank units on the move!

If they weren't about to be attacked, and obviously so, there would have been no war! As it is, they not only beat back the multiple nations who had ganged up on them, they won more territory from the aggressors. And, as an added trivia bit, some Israeli units were still armed with antique Mauser 98Ks. They still won.

Where DO you get your revisionist history? Hamas' media arm?

They're still trying to hide the fact that superior tactics routed a much more powerful multination force, especially in the maneuvers against the Egyptian armor. Because it's an embarrassment. Just like the 1973 Yom Kippur war, when the Arab nations tried again and lost was an embarassement. Like how Syria recently boasted that nothing could get through their state-of-the-art Russian air defense system, then Israel got through undetected and broke their soon-to-be weapons production reactor. It was an embarrassment.

The suicide bombing started out of sheer rage because every time these militarily superior, larger Arab nations tried to gang up on Israel and smash it, they ended up getting their teeth broken and ass handed to them, and lost more land, too. So they went to asymmetrical warfare against civilian populations, as terrorists, the equivalent of a brat going and punching someone's defenseless younger sibling because the sibling their own size keeps repelling their attacks.

Now they supply rockets to people who launch them deliberately into civilian centers. Because that little bit of incoherently flailing rage is all they have left. Every time they try to build a nuke, it gets taken away from them.

That's the facts.

Sorry friend, but you are in need of some serious remedial history on this war.

First off, Israel's surprise attack wiped out the only real air force that Israel faced-leaving Israel with the ability to bomb enemy forces at will throughout the campaign.   The advantage of total air superiority is impossible to underestimate, although the IDF has managed to prove that it can be made irrelevant in the most recent war in Lebanon.

Your picture of the war is wrong for two reasons:

1. It basically takes the Arab propaganda as gospel with respect to their militaries, which were poorly armed, poorly led, and poorly organized in 1967.  The "advantage" did not exist in any respect, although they were at that stage comparable to the Israeli forces (as opposed to now, with the Arabs being way behind)...had the Arabs attacked first, the war almost certainly would not have been so lopsided. (See 1973, when Israel very nearly was destroyed.)

and

2.  It ignores the proclamations of the Israeli military leadership, including Begin, that made clear that the 1967 war was a policy driven war.  It was not a strike to avert imminent disaster-it was a decided campaign to subdue in advance any opposition to Israeli dominance in the region. 

This claim:

Quote
The suicide bombing started out of sheer rage because every time these militarily superior, larger Arab nations tried to gang up on Israel and smash it,

Is completely unsupported by the facts.  The suicide bombing campaign kicked off with quite public proclamations as to its supposed "justification"-it was a response to the massacre in Hebron by Baruch Goldstein at friday prayers.  It followed the Hebron massacre by a matter of months, and all of the suicide attacks referenced the Hebron incident.

In a nutshell, it would be hard to have an analysis more obviously wrong than the ones you have posted on the 1967 war and the suicide bombing campaign (which didn't start until 1994), at least if the historical documents available are to be considered with any weight. 

The only times that the Arab nations ever even held a candle to Israel in terms of military parity were in 67 and 73.  There has never been a war agaisnt Israel where the Israelis were outgunned or outnumbered-not once....although the IDF certainly has managed to bungle wars even with its enormous advantage.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

seeker_two

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2008, 01:25:09 AM »
We would have done Israel and the rest of the Middle East a big favor if, after declaring victory in Iraq, took the 1st Armored Division and made a hard left toward Damascus....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Typhoon

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2008, 08:47:01 AM »
shootinstudent wrote:

Quote
2.  It ignores the proclamations of the Israeli military leadership, including Begin, that made clear that the 1967 war was a policy driven war.  It was not a strike to avert imminent disaster-it was a decided campaign to subdue in advance any opposition to Israeli dominance in the region.

Really?

Israel was more than provoked in 1967 and her security was more than at risk..

1)   May 16, 1967: Nassar requested (read: demanded) removal of UN peacekeeping forces in the Sinai peninsula.  Without putting it before the UN General Assembly as he was supposed to do, Secretary General U Thant caved and ordered the removal.

2)   Egyptian troops move into the Sinai.  Syria mobilizes in Golan. Jordan signs defense pact and joins the Egyptian-Syrian alliance on May 30, placing its forces on both sides of the Jordan under Egyptian command.

3)   Egypt blockades the Israeli port of Eilat on May 22-23 1967 in violation of the Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone, which was adopted by the UN Conference on the Law of the Sea on April 27, 1958 that recognized Israels rights to the Straits of Tiran.

4)   June 4: Iraq joins the Egypt, Syria and Jordan alliance.  President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq publishes this little gem of a statement:

The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map.

I'd like to see those proclamations by the Israeli military leadership...
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2008, 10:00:46 AM »
The Israeli military leadership is not allowed to make proclamations. Thank you, we have laws in this country. Cheesy

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De Selby

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2008, 10:38:19 AM »
shootinstudent wrote:

Quote
2.  It ignores the proclamations of the Israeli military leadership, including Begin, that made clear that the 1967 war was a policy driven war.  It was not a strike to avert imminent disaster-it was a decided campaign to subdue in advance any opposition to Israeli dominance in the region.

Really?

Israel was more than provoked in 1967 and her security was more than at risk..

1)   May 16, 1967: Nassar requested (read: demanded) removal of UN peacekeeping forces in the Sinai peninsula.  Without putting it before the UN General Assembly as he was supposed to do, Secretary General U Thant caved and ordered the removal.

2)   Egyptian troops move into the Sinai.  Syria mobilizes in Golan. Jordan signs defense pact and joins the Egyptian-Syrian alliance on May 30, placing its forces on both sides of the Jordan under Egyptian command.

3)   Egypt blockades the Israeli port of Eilat on May 22-23 1967 in violation of the Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone, which was adopted by the UN Conference on the Law of the Sea on April 27, 1958 that recognized Israels rights to the Straits of Tiran.

4)   June 4: Iraq joins the Egypt, Syria and Jordan alliance.  President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq publishes this little gem of a statement:

The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map.

I'd like to see those proclamations by the Israeli military leadership...


Yeah, I've seen the list before.  I prefer to cruise the Israeli government's webpages for information on the conflict, though, and this is what you would find if you did that instead of cutting and pasting lists floating around on the propaganda-web:

Here's what Menachem Begin himself had to say about the 1967 war:  http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1982-1984/55%20Address%20by%20Prime%20Minister%20Begin%20at%20the%20National
Quote
In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.

This was a war of self-defence in the noblest sense of the term. The government of national unity then established decided unanimously: We will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation.

We did not do this for lack of an alternative. We could have gone on waiting. We could have sent the army home. Who knows if there would have been an attack against us? There is no proof of it. There are several arguments to the contrary.

Here's what Israel did immediately following the 1967 war (annex newly conquered territory as part of Israel):
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/Jerusalem+After+the+Six+Day+War+-1967-.htm

And here is what the United States had to say about the lead up to the 167 war (these cables were written at the time).  Peruse the list of incidents, and there is simply no honest way to conclude that 1967 was a war of just "provocation and threat" against the innocent Israeli government.  It was clearly involved in ratcheting up the climate for war by making constant attacks on its Arab neighbors: 
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xviii/zh.html

In sum, Israel was attacking Jordan monthly while the King was begging for the Israelis to stop, because of how powerless it was making him look to his own people.  That was the year before the 1967 war-so no, it was not endless provocation of Israel. 

The grandstanding by the Arabs that you posted was mainly boasting designed to help the Arabs keep power at home, and if you didn't pay attention to the constant Israeli bomb attacks that preceded them, you would miss that.  You can't completely ignore what one side is doing in a conflict and then claim to have an answer about how it started.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Olmert warns of Syria concessions
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2008, 10:48:36 AM »
The Israeli military leadership is not allowed to make proclamations. Thank you, we have laws in this country. Cheesy



My mistake Smiley.

Edit to read "suggestions of historic significance"
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."