Author Topic: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents  (Read 28080 times)

Racehorse

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Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« on: May 29, 2008, 01:17:47 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080529/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=Aug8b5NuxU3vqeLpKAOgM7Os0NUE

Quote
By MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer
23 minutes ago
 


SAN ANTONIO - In a crushing blow to the state's massive seizure of children from a polygamist sect's ranch, the Texas Supreme Court ruled Thursday that child welfare officials overstepped their authority and the children should go back to their parents.

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The high court affirmed a decision by an appellate court last week, saying Child Protective Services failed to show an immediate danger to the more than 400 children swept up from the Yearning For Zion Ranch nearly two months ago.

"On the record before us, removal of the children was not warranted," the justices said in their ruling issued in Austin.

The high court let stand the appellate court's order that Texas District Judge Barbara Walther return the children from foster care to their parents. It's not clear how soon that may happen, but the appellate court ordered her to do it within a reasonable time period.

The ruling shatters one of the largest child-custody cases in U.S. history. State officials said the removals were necessary to end a cycle of sexual abuse at the ranch in which teenage girls were forced to marry and have sex with older men, but parents denied any abuse and said they were being persecuted for their religious beliefs.

The case before the court technically only applies to 124 children of the 38 mothers who filed a complaint that prompted the ruling, but it significantly affects nearly all the children since they were removed under identical circumstances.

The ranch is run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which teaches that polygamy brings glorification in heaven. It is a breakaway sect of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago.

Texas officials claimed at one point that there were 31 teenage girls at the ranch who were pregnant or had been pregnant, but later conceded that about half of those mothers, if not more, were adults. One was 27.

Under Texas law, children can be taken from their parents if there's a danger to their physical safety, an urgent need for protection and if officials made a reasonable effort to keep the children in their homes. The high court agreed with the appellate court that the seizures fell short of that standard.


While I'm definitely against sexual abuse and underage marriages, this whole thing has been an enormous abuse of power by CPS. I'm glad the court stood up for freedom and due process. They should punish individual offenders hard when they're proven guilty, but this was taking things to a ridiculous and unconstitutional extreme.

gunsmith

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2008, 02:09:48 PM »
Ah! You beat me to it.
Some of us knew from day one what TX was doing was plain wrong.
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=11791.150
However saying so on here was construed that you somehow support rape and child abuse.

This ruling is a victory for families and gun owners in particular.
I am sick of the liberal media trying people on tv before the case goes to court.
Nancy Grace was all over this case yelling and screaming for prison and more then half of the folks here cheered her on, forgetting that a few months ago Nancy Grace excoriated a mom who bout her son a 9mm high point carbine.
Nancy Grace wanted the mom prosecuted for "giving her kid a high powered assault weapon" I don't trust Nancy Grace now and I sure didn't trust her before, or the time before that.

The state of TX let real victims of child abuse down, they let due process down.
They were aping the old soviet union, trial by innuendo and arresting on the word of accusers who never had to reveal who they are.

A prank phone call shouldn't be able to destroy innocent people and thank God better legal minds then mine agreed with me.

Some of those kids were undoubtedly abused, but the CPS and the liberal hysterics bent on a witch hunt of all they don't like screwed it up so bad that those kids will not see  justice.

Funny haircuts and a lack of the latest nitendo does not equal abuse

Nancy Grace, Larry King and Fox/CNN/MSNBC  are for the most part
vile imbeciles with way to much power to sway public opinion.

(I do like Glen Beck though)
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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2008, 02:24:08 PM »
I hope TX remembers this case and the Waco debacle
the next time they go off half cocked against
a "rural compound"
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2008, 02:31:47 PM »
this isn't judge judy   when the dna tests comeback there will be some wailing and gnashing of teeth. and some guys on the run or in jail
this saga is far from over
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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gunsmith

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2008, 03:05:17 PM »
I agree, it is far from over.
TX will be forced to pay out big time for false arrest.

cassandra and sara's daddy, you wouldn't want your kids
taken because a prank phone reported that you were an active participant
on pro gun internet forums.

Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

K Frame

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2008, 04:08:37 PM »
this isn't judge judy   when the dna tests comeback there will be some wailing and gnashing of teeth. and some guys on the run or in jail
this saga is far from over

Why?

Because they fathered children with multiple women?

Last time I looked that wasn't against the law.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2008, 04:11:14 PM »
my understanding is that a girl who has my kid whens shes 15 would make me guilty of statutory rape. thats why the "church" hid identities and birth records  it bit em in the tail before  in utah if an old mans memory serves
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2008, 04:18:29 PM »
I agree, it is far from over.
TX will be forced to pay out big time for false arrest.

cassandra and sara's daddy, you wouldn't want your kids
taken because a prank phone reported that you were an active participant
on pro gun internet forums.



thats almost funny

don't hold your breath waiting on that check


if you can make the stretch from being on here to belonging to a group like the flds you are capable of stretches beyond me. i'd do the honorable thing and off myself before i would pimp or allow someone else to pimp a teenage girl. but then again different strokes for different folks. though some strokes carry legal repercussions
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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K Frame

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2008, 04:34:19 PM »
my understanding is that a girl who has my kid whens shes 15 would make me guilty of statutory rape. thats why the "church" hid identities and birth records  it bit em in the tail before  in utah if an old mans memory serves

Ah. Good point.

What's Texas law on age of consent and such?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2008, 04:42:43 PM »
not sure but unless its 13 some guys got some splaining to do. and they better kill themselves before they go to prison

bet some fellers are cursing the dna tests
in the earlier cases the birth records hung em so they hide birth records now  as well as tried to muddy the id trail.
they do have a shot trying to get the dna suppressed but since it was done under court order i don't see that happening  were it me i'd be on the run looking for a place with no extradition
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2008, 05:05:45 PM »
Well, since they got all that DNA by breaking the law themselves, I think it might not be that easy.

By acting in such a reckless, feckless, and precipitous manner, CPS likely has queered all the evidence collected after they hauled off the 400 kiddos.  Which includes all the DNA evidence, BTW.

IOW, honest-to-goodness statutory rapists will walk because of CPS's and the State of Texas's actions.

Dumbass CPS & dumbass cheering section, IMO.

As in many gov't abuse of power cases, the process will be the punishment.

Disgusting all the way around.
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roo_ster

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2008, 05:20:00 PM »
we'll see   as far as i know there have been no attempts to suppress and i haven't heard the talking heads getting excited. the decision to snatch the kids was done by cps  the order for testing was through a judge. will be interesting  as far as i know they can only suppress if they can make the argument that they woulds not get the evidence without the prior "bad act. in this case that might be a tough sell. were i one of the guys on the bubble i'd run or kill myself
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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gunsmith

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2008, 06:15:48 PM »
cassandra and sara's daddy.

Quote
if you can make the stretch from being on here to belonging to a group like the flds you are capable of stretches beyond me. i'd do the honorable thing and off myself before i would pimp or allow someone else to pimp a teenage girl. but then again different strokes for different folks. though some strokes carry legal repercussions

There is a huge, gigantic, humongous difference between wanting due process and wanting TX to help abused children in a legal & fair manner, and advocating freaking child rape.

Your post really make me question your reading comprehension.
(both in this thread and the last FLDS thread)

Please, PLEASE, read this before attempting debate, please please please!
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2008, 08:12:30 PM »
heck the flds spokesman just said "2 wrongs don't make a right" freudian slip? or confession

theres a picture of warren el supremo with a 12 year old girl in his arms kissing her
12 a lil young for you fellers?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2008, 08:16:07 PM »
Texas
The age of consent in Texas is 17 {Texas Penal Code Section 21.11}. However , "...It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the actor...was not more than three years older than the victim and of the opposite sex...(and) did not use duress, force, or a threat against the victim at the time of the offence" and is not a registered sex offender {Section 21.11(b)}.

Section 21.12 further prohibits all sexual contact between an employee of a school (including educators)and a student enrolled at the primary or secondary school where said employee works. No age is specified by the statute (thus, even if the student has reached consent age of 17, it is still a violation), and violations are a second degree felony.



heck maybe its me being old fashioned but a guy kissing a 12 year old   when hes 30 plus years older than her rubs me the wrong way  must not be libertarian enough. and hes not ashamed got posed pictures  was nothin he hid
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2008, 08:26:16 PM »
Quote
What's Texas law on age of consent and such?

Consent to marriage: 18, 16 with parent permission.
Consent to sex: 17 (except with spouse)
See:
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/FA/content/htm/fa.001.00.000002.00.htm
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.005.00.000021.00.htm#21.11.00

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2008, 08:29:06 PM »
so when thers a 15 year old mom its problematic   one thing when fathers a teen too when hes 30 or 40 i can't let that slide. but i'm not as open minded as some here
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2008, 08:39:51 PM »
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://a.abcnews.com/images/TheLaw/ht_jeffs_080528_mn.jpg&imgrefurl=http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story%3Fid%3D4948876%26page%3D1&h=240&w=320&sz=18&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=YNBBGei8eDmwXM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwarren%2Bjeffs%2Bkissing%2Bgirl%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_en___US253%26sa%3DG

Elissa Wall Speaks Out About Her 'Stolen Innocence'
Forced Into Marriage at 14, She Testified Against Polygamous Prophet Warren Jeffs
By JOSEPH DIAZ
May 16, 2008 
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RSS The recent raid on Warren Jeffs' Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, Texas, which resulted in the removal of more than 400 children from their homes, has thrust allegations of widespread child abuse at the polygamous sect into the national spotlight.

Elissa Wall recounts her traumatic experience at Warren Jeffs' compound.

More PhotosBut one of the darkest secrets of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints unfolds at a seedy roadside motel in the remote Nevada desert, where underage girls  some as young as 14  are allegedly forced through hasty and secret wedding ceremonies.

Elissa Wall says she was one such 14-year-old who was taken to the motel and plunged into wedlock with no choice but to accept and obey the command of Jeffs.

Sam Brower, a private detective who has spent five years investigating Jeffs and his sect for a number of former members, says the weddings are done "covertly, real cloak-and-dagger like."

Wall, now 21, told ABC News' John Quinones that, "I was trapped. I felt like I had nowhere to turn. I did not want to go through with this marriage. I felt, honestly, what it was like to die."

Related
PHOTOS: Growing Up Polygamous'Stolen Innocence' Book ExcerptPolygamy Moms' SOS Plea: Help Us
'I Knew It Wasn't Right'
Wall has documented her terrible ordeal in a new memoir called "Stolen Innocence."

In it, she described in detail growing up in the sect that she says betrayed her faith. She says her wedding was the culmination of a traumatic experience that began when church leaders removed her, her mom and sisters from their family and reassigned them to another man  Fred Jessop.


Then, just months after her eighth-grade graduation, Jessop told her she'd be married in a week.

"Deep down inside, I knew it wasn't right," Wall said. "I didn't want to be married at 14. [Sect members] honestly believe, and I did and so did my mother, that God sent down inspiration from heaven, like a strike of lightning, down to the prophet. This was God's word. And we were to follow it, obediently and happily."

During a meeting in the church hall, she learned her husband-to-be was her cousin Allen Steed, 19, whom she said she despised.

"I remember he walked over and I got this really sick feeling in my stomach," Wall said. "Once I found out I was going to marry Allen something in me just rose up and I really resisted."

She pleaded her case to Jeffs, but he turned her down and she was quickly fitted for a wedding dress.


It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2008, 08:49:43 PM »
/sigh....

I don't think most people are saying there aren't some evil people involved. We're saying that no matter how bad some of them are CPS breaking the law and screwing over dozens of innocent families to try to get those bad people is wrong.

Your argument is no different than the gun-banners who point to an innocent kid shot in a drive by and exploit the death to try to justify bad law.

Oh hell, why am I trying to use a logical argument on a guy who thinks cops should be able to break the law as much as they want (usually using his status as a former drug dealer to lend himself authority) and tries to smear everyone as a racist because he is? I'm done with you. At least when SS is blathering some idiotic defense of terrorists he uses fricking capital letters and punctuation. I don't know if you're incapable of writing correctly, or you just don't have enough courtesy to try, but either way I've wasted enough time on you.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2008, 09:16:45 PM »
cps got a judge to approve the raids and removals. that would seem to comply with the law. another higher court overuled the initial court  again that would indicate to me that the system worked as designed. i thought we used the courts to sort these kinda things out and it seemed that is happening here. some of those folks whos kids got taken might wanna take a look at what role their refusing to id themselves played in their situation
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2008, 09:48:59 PM »
Next time they should just burn the place down. Dead people file no claims.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2008, 09:54:22 PM »
these folks are gonna be too busy for a while to file claims
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2008, 01:29:28 AM »
Well, since they got all that DNA by breaking the law themselves, I think it might not be that easy.

By acting in such a reckless, feckless, and precipitous manner, CPS likely has queered all the evidence collected after they hauled off the 400 kiddos.  Which includes all the DNA evidence, BTW.

IOW, honest-to-goodness statutory rapists will walk because of CPS's and the State of Texas's actions.

Dumbass CPS & dumbass cheering section, IMO.

As in many gov't abuse of power cases, the process will be the punishment.

Disgusting all the way around.

Agreed....this poison tree is going to shade any probable abusers and hang CPS......

Notice how no one from CPS has replied?.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2008, 02:43:04 AM »
Mark my words:

This sort of thing is going to repeat itself until society reviews how it deals with child protection altogether.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner