Author Topic: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents  (Read 28079 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2008, 03:05:11 AM »
Well, since they got all that DNA by breaking the law themselves, I think it might not be that easy.

By acting in such a reckless, feckless, and precipitous manner, CPS likely has queered all the evidence collected after they hauled off the 400 kiddos.  Which includes all the DNA evidence, BTW.

IOW, honest-to-goodness statutory rapists will walk because of CPS's and the State of Texas's actions.

Dumbass CPS & dumbass cheering section, IMO.

As in many gov't abuse of power cases, the process will be the punishment.

Disgusting all the way around.

Agreed....this poison tree is going to shade any probable abusers and hang CPS......

Notice how no one from CPS has replied?.....


what do they reply to?

notice howno one has filed to suppress?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2008, 03:19:33 AM »
Ah! You beat me to it.
. . .
Nancy Grace was all over this case yelling and screaming for prison and more then half of the folks here cheered her on, forgetting that a few months ago Nancy Grace excoriated a mom who bout her son a 9mm high point carbine.
Nancy Grace wanted the mom prosecuted for "giving her kid a high powered assault weapon" I don't trust Nancy Grace now and I sure didn't trust her before, or the time before that.

Nancy Grace is a mental midget and should have her vocal cords forcibly removed via surgery.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2008, 03:22:05 AM »
Ah! You beat me to it.
. . .
Nancy Grace was all over this case yelling and screaming for prison and more then half of the folks here cheered her on, forgetting that a few months ago Nancy Grace excoriated a mom who bout her son a 9mm high point carbine.
Nancy Grace wanted the mom prosecuted for "giving her kid a high powered assault weapon" I don't trust Nancy Grace now and I sure didn't trust her before, or the time before that.

Nancy Grace is a mental midget and should have her vocal cords forcibly removed via surgery.

It amazes me how Americans who KNOW the media lies about guns trust them on other issues.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2008, 03:28:30 AM »
Ah! You beat me to it.
. . .
Nancy Grace was all over this case yelling and screaming for prison and more then half of the folks here cheered her on, forgetting that a few months ago Nancy Grace excoriated a mom who bout her son a 9mm high point carbine.
Nancy Grace wanted the mom prosecuted for "giving her kid a high powered assault weapon" I don't trust Nancy Grace now and I sure didn't trust her before, or the time before that.

Nancy Grace is a mental midget and should have her vocal cords forcibly removed via surgery.

It amazes me how Americans who KNOW the media lies about guns trust them on other issues.

The media distorts almost everything it reports. Objectivity is not an object, or part of the business model anymore.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2008, 03:39:03 AM »
Ah! You beat me to it.
. . .
Nancy Grace was all over this case yelling and screaming for prison and more then half of the folks here cheered her on, forgetting that a few months ago Nancy Grace excoriated a mom who bout her son a 9mm high point carbine.
Nancy Grace wanted the mom prosecuted for "giving her kid a high powered assault weapon" I don't trust Nancy Grace now and I sure didn't trust her before, or the time before that.

Nancy Grace is a mental midget and should have her vocal cords forcibly removed via surgery.

It amazes me how Americans who KNOW the media lies about guns trust them on other issues.

The media distorts almost everything it reports. Objectivity is not an object, or part of the business model anymore.

It never was.

But at least at one point press was openly 'party press'.

Lies disguised as 'objectivity' are worse because people don't realize the media is not being objective.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2008, 03:50:21 AM »
Ah! You beat me to it.
. . .
Nancy Grace was all over this case yelling and screaming for prison and more then half of the folks here cheered her on, forgetting that a few months ago Nancy Grace excoriated a mom who bout her son a 9mm high point carbine.
Nancy Grace wanted the mom prosecuted for "giving her kid a high powered assault weapon" I don't trust Nancy Grace now and I sure didn't trust her before, or the time before that.

Nancy Grace is a mental midget and should have her vocal cords forcibly removed via surgery.

It amazes me how Americans who KNOW the media lies about guns trust them on other issues.

The media distorts almost everything it reports. Objectivity is not an object, or part of the business model anymore.

It never was.

But at least at one point press was openly 'party press'.

Lies disguised as 'objectivity' are worse because people don't realize the media is not being objective.

Actually, journalists used to be train to report the facts and minimize the opinions. Now it is the opposite.

HankB

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2008, 03:52:27 AM »
In my opinion, forty and fifty year old men who have sex with 12, 13, or 14 year old girls need to be hammered - hard - by the law, regardless of any so-called "consent."

But there are SO many inconsistencies in the press releases and statements coming out of CPS (the numbers change every day) it's looking more and more like a rogue, out of control agency decided to pump up their publicity by attacking a nontraditional religious group that included some bad people, without regard for collateral damage.

Now local media is reporting that some of the female "children" taken and incarcerated without arrest or charges filed were legally adults. (Kidnapping charges, anyone?)

With two adverse court rulings, it looks like CPS is going into full CMA mode. What bothers me is that CPS employees who screwed up royally are almost certainly not going to suffer any consequences personally . . . and that's just wrong.  angry

It amazes me how Americans who KNOW the media lies about guns trust them on other issues.
I, and others, have made exactly that observation before.
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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2008, 05:07:53 AM »
we'll see   as far as i know there have been no attempts to suppress and i haven't heard the talking heads getting excited...

what do they reply to?

notice howno one has filed to suppress?

Folks gotta be charged in order to suppress evidence obtained illegally.  Nobody's been charged with squat, therefore, no defense lawyer has had to try to suppress anything to properly represent their client.

I expect CPS to just release more & more illegally obtained data to the press in order to try them in the press and convince us the FLDS is filled with wierdos*.  That, plus the process itself will be the punishment. 

CPS truly humped the canine on this one.  Folks who ought to go to jail will walk.  And then they'll sue the State of Texas for megabucks.  And win.







* They don't need to convince ME.  I already think they are wierdos.  But, they are also American citizens.
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roo_ster

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Racehorse

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2008, 05:51:39 AM »
In my opinion, forty and fifty year old men who have sex with 12, 13, or 14 year old girls need to be hammered - hard - by the law, regardless of any so-called "consent."

But there are SO many inconsistencies in the press releases and statements coming out of CPS (the numbers change every day) it's looking more and more like a rogue, out of control agency decided to pump up their publicity by attacking a nontraditional religious group that included some bad people, without regard for collateral damage.

That pretty well sums up how I feel about it.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2008, 05:56:30 AM »
40 Caliber, I recommend you listen to William Anderson's lecture at Mises Institute.

It's called An Austrian Analysis of the Fourth Estate, and it's incredibly enlightening.
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MechAg94

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2008, 06:03:08 AM »
Some of the anti-CPS rhetoric on this thread is worse than the anti-pedophile stuff on the other thread.  Cheesy


In this case, CPS did get a court order to do what they did.  They did not violate anyone's rights without due process.  Going forward, I can only hope and assume the judge and lawyers have all the evidence in front of them to make sure justice is done one way or the other.  If you want to gripe about the raid, talk to the judge who issued the warrant.

While it looks like some of the worst fears about this compound may not be true, I think it likely something was happening.  I don't have enough info right now and neither does anyone else on this board.  Someone with extra time should go down there and sit in on the court proceedings. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2008, 06:05:34 AM »
Quote
Some of the anti-CPS rhetoric on this thread is worse than the anti-pedophile stuff on the other thread.

I have always said that the way society handles child protection is completely screwed-up.

I don't see how this event proves me wrong.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2008, 10:02:53 AM »
they won't be able to suppress sucessfully.one part they leave out on csi and law and order is the nasty bit where the evidence gets tossed only if there was no other way they woulda got it  the dna was gotten legit .
seperate issue from the seizure
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2008, 10:13:51 AM »
Some of the anti-CPS rhetoric on this thread is worse than the anti-pedophile stuff on the other thread.  Cheesy


Agreed.  I swore off of this topic in the other thread, but I want to do one thing before I go away.  i want to explain this process.

CPS gets a referral on a case.  They go out and investigate.  if they believe the situation warrants removal of a child, they apply for a court order authorizing the removal. if the court authorizes it, they remove the kid, then have a full heairng on this situation the next day solely on whether the removal was legally justified.  There is a full trial on the original allegations within a certain period of time.  at all times, the burden is on the state/CPS to prove their actions were warranted.  parents are entitled to appointed counsel  if they cannot afford an attorney.  A guardian ad litem/attorney is apointed to act as an independent voice on behalf of the child.

the system has plenty of protections for the parents.

Tallpine

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2008, 10:25:03 AM »
Quote
They go out and investigate.

I think they skipped the part about the 400++ investigations  laugh
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seeker_two

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2008, 10:57:07 AM »
Some of the anti-CPS rhetoric on this thread is worse than the anti-pedophile stuff on the other thread.  Cheesy


Agreed.  I swore off of this topic in the other thread, but I want to do one thing before I go away.  i want to explain this process.

CPS gets a referral on a case.  They go out and investigate.  if they believe the situation warrants removal of a child, they apply for a court order authorizing the removal. if the court authorizes it, they remove the kid, then have a full heairng on this situation the next day solely on whether the removal was legally justified.  There is a full trial on the original allegations within a certain period of time.  at all times, the burden is on the state/CPS to prove their actions were warranted.  parents are entitled to appointed counsel  if they cannot afford an attorney.  A guardian ad litem/attorney is apointed to act as an independent voice on behalf of the child.

the system has plenty of protections for the parents.


That's pretty accurate......and, as a former CPS investigator who had to do child removals in the past, I can also say that CPS didn't even follow their own procedure in this case......

1. If only one parent is suspected of abuse and the other parent can care for and protect the child, the alleged abuser can leave the home until the investigation is complete. In this case, the men could have been escorted from the ranch and kept separate until the investigations were complete.

2. The press releases from CPS were highly inappropriate....esp. the ones about children with prior bone fractures indicating "abuse". You and I both know what kinds of fractures strongly indicate abuse and which ones are just as likely injuries from typical accidents. If the fractures were the abusive kind, I would have expected CPS to be yelling "greenstick" from every hilltop in West Texas. But we heard nothing........

3. CPS had someone on the inside:  CPS doesn't do undercover investigations.

4. Unsubstantiated, anonymous tip: That's probably the worst failing of the CPS system....no way to verify the person making the allegation or follow up on false allegations. If the police require a complaintant to identify themselves, CPS should also.

5. Investigation training: You know who CPS investigators usually are? Fresh-faced social-work types just graduated from college who receive less that two week's training in investigation and affidavit-writing. I came in with more investigation skills from reading Robert B. Parker novels than my trainer (a former CPS investigator) had. And forget about investigations that will hold up in a criminal court. Most DA's won't even touch a CPS case due to investigative errors....and a lot of perps walk away. I was lucky enough to do one sex-abuse (3 victims all under 5 y.o.) investigation tight enough that the local sheriff's dept. used it for their own investigation. The perp ended up with a 40-year stay in TDCJ Hilton-Huntsville. How many are still free?


The CPS system needs to be fixed....and it's needed to be fixed for a long time. This case just put all their faults in the limelight on a massive scale. I wouldn't mind seeing DFPS moved from DHHS supervision to DPS supervision and hiring actual trained investigators (retired LEO's would be great) to oversee these investigations.

I also wish we had a conservative Republican as govenor, too......
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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2008, 02:52:37 PM »
cassandra and sara's daddy
Quote
but i'm not as open minded as some here

Its not about being open minded, you do not understand debate and seem to advocate that the State has unlimited powers of arrest based on
false reports. Also you seem to advocate trial & conviction by media &
unlimited power of the State to detain parents and take their children.

Unfortunately, your mindset is prevalent in the Texas CPS, this failure to comprehend basic Jurisprudence has led to the State returning abused children to their abusers.

You are not guilty of failing to protect those children, but people like you
(who feel that unlimited State power is good "for the children")
are guilty of failing the children of the FLDS.

So do not point fingers at people here, cassandra and sara's daddy, you can look in the mirror and see the type of person who is so closed minded that they would rather have the FLDS children returned
to their suspected abusers then seek to learn, grow and understand.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2008, 03:54:38 PM »
Its not about being open minded, you do not understand debate and seem to advocate that the State has unlimited powers of arrest based on
false reports.


were it only the one set of reports they were working with you might be right. rather we have multiple long term reports from multiple sources  we have prior mutiple acts   convictions in the states they fled from based on their own records.  we have pictures for those who need/loke em. we have 15 year old moms with dads your age and older. i know you hate links but talke a chance look at the pictures. when the dna comes back there will be some guys going to be someones wife
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2008, 04:05:22 PM »
Texas authorities, meanwhile, collected DNA swabs Thursday from sect leader Warren Jeffs in an ongoing criminal investigation separate from the custody dispute.

A search warrant for the DNA alleges that Jeffs had "spiritual" marriages with four girls, ages 12 to 15.

Jeffs, who is revered as a prophet, is serving a prison sentence for a Utah conviction of being accomplice to rape in the marriage of a 14-year-old girl to a 19-year-old sect member. He awaits trial in Arizona on similar charges.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24887140

click the link and vote  interesting breakdown there
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MechAg94

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2008, 05:48:39 PM »
I have a separate question from the current discussion:  is there some particular reason (religious or other) why these people have a history of marrying off underage girls?  Polygamy is one thing, but marrying off underage girls is to me another thing all together. 

I am actually looking for an answer, not BS.  Cheesy
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roo_ster

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2008, 07:08:18 PM »
Well the ideal scenario set forth by Chris does not seem to apply, as that is not what occurred.

I think what has normal non-lawyerly folks outraged is that this shows the unbridled power exercised by these CPS agencies.  Based on an anonymous tip (later found out to be dropped by a nutcase) CPS went to a judge and the judge was willing to sign a warrant based on bullshit.  CPS marched in and then took 400 kids and kidnapped a number of adults it claimed were kids.

Folks have just realized how quickly and on what little, unverified "evidence" CPS and judges can rip their families apart.  And the CPS apparatus & apologists are surprised at the outrage, the poor dears.

All this noise about "process" is not comforting to real folks who might be subject to the authority of the state CPS apparatus.  We have seen that CPS & the judge will skip steps in that process if it suits them and drag the families through every minute procedural quirk in retaliation when they get their weenies spanked by wiser heads above them.

Also, the process itself is part of the punishment:
Take your kids away on flimsy/no evidence, shove them into the foster care system, when the allegations/evidence are found to be bullshit then force the parents to give up their right to demand a warrant for CPS to intrude upon their house.  All the while, the parents are paying lawyers by the minute.

The knucklehead judge in this case is insisting on the above & more to return the kids even after the Supreme Court of Texas pretty much said she was an idiot in a black robe.  The chowderhead does not know when to leave well enough alone.

The judge and folks in CPS need to feel some serious repercussions, to serve as an example of poor conduct, to show hte citizens of Texas that shenanigans will be punished, and so that those who were wronged will see that their tormentors are getting some justice through the process so the wronged won't have to "go outside the process."
Regards,

roo_ster

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2008, 08:05:24 PM »
An appellate court ruled last week that CPS failed to show an immediate danger to justify taking the children from their parents, saying the state failed to show any more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused and offered no evidence of sexual or physical abuse of the other children.



Ruling allowed leeway for judge
The Supreme Court justices, however, said Walther could put restrictions on the children and parents to address concerns that they may flee once reunited and that CPS had authority to investigate and intervene in the family's lives to prevent abuse.

Texas authorities, meanwhile, collected DNA swabs Thursday from sect leader Warren Jeffs in an ongoing criminal investigation separate from the custody dispute.

A search warrant for the DNA alleges that Jeffs had "spiritual" marriages with four girls, ages 12 to 15.

Jeffs, who is revered as a prophet, is serving a prison sentence for a Utah conviction of being accomplice to rape in the marriage of a 14-year-old girl to a 19-year-old sect member. He awaits trial in Arizona on similar charges.

the court said she was a chowderhead where?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2008, 08:44:56 PM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24009286/

Everything you did was monitored and controlled and everybody reported on everyone else, she said. It was a police state. You were not allowed to make decisions in your life. I had no power over my life or the lives of my children. It was a terrible way to live.

The alleged control began in infancy.

The method he would use with infants was a form of water torture, Jessop said of her former husband. He would spank the baby until it was screaming out of control, and then he would hold the baby faceup under a tap of running water so it couldnt breathe. He would do this repeatedly. Sometimes, it would go on for an hour, until the baby was so exhausted it couldnt cry anymore. This method he called breaking them.

To a child, the abuse becomes normal, she said, and resistance becomes unthinkable to most. With this level of mind control, its something youre born into and its generational. The babies born into this, they dont stand a chance from the beginning, she said.

What prompted her to leave was what she saw as a threat to her daughter.

It was getting worse every year, she said of the level of control and abuse. Thats one of the things for me where I felt so urgent to get out was that my daughter was turning 14, and Warren was resetting the marrying age at that point to 14. This was in 2003.

It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2008, 09:18:49 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/23/scotus.searches/index.html


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court offered unanimous support for police Wednesday by allowing drug evidence gathered after an arrest that violated state law to be used at trial, an important search-and-seizure case turning on the constitutional limits of "probable cause."


It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

roo_ster

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Re: Court: Sect children should be returned to parents
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2008, 04:12:18 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/23/scotus.searches/index.html


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court offered unanimous support for police Wednesday by allowing drug evidence gathered after an arrest that violated state law to be used at trial, an important search-and-seizure case turning on the constitutional limits of "probable cause."




So, you support the admissibility of illegally-obtained evidence?  Are you one of those, "Living Constitution types?"
Regards,

roo_ster

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