Court: Sect children should be returned to parents

[seeker_two]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/23/scotus.searches/index.html


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court offered unanimous support for police Wednesday by allowing drug evidence gathered after an arrest that violated state law to be used at trial, an important search-and-seizure case turning on the constitutional limits of "probable cause."

So what's the point in warrants, anymore?......

[Mabs2]

Well gee, this is good to hear about CPS.  =\

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/23/scotus.searches/index.html


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court offered unanimous support for police Wednesday by allowing drug evidence gathered after an arrest that violated state law to be used at trial, an important search-and-seizure case turning on the constitutional limits of "probable cause."

read the whole article  i couldn't get it to cut sand paste right

So, you support the admissibility of illegally-obtained evidence?  Are you one of those, "Living Constitution types?"

[Racehorse]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/23/scotus.searches/index.html


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court offered unanimous support for police Wednesday by allowing drug evidence gathered after an arrest that violated state law to be used at trial, an important search-and-seizure case turning on the constitutional limits of "probable cause."

So what's the point in warrants, anymore?......

That's what has me worried. It seems the 4th amendment has already been thrown out with little to no outcry. The 2nd amendment is important, but the 4th amendment is just as important, and I don't see many people complaining about the latest governmental power grabs.

[Perd Hapley]

I have a separate question from the current discussion:  is there some particular reason (religious or other) why these people have a history of marrying off underage girls?  Polygamy is one thing, but marrying off underage girls is to me another thing all together. 

I am actually looking for an answer, not BS. 

Yeah, they are definitely two different issues.  A third issue would be the mind control or brain-washing sort of tactics that have been brought up in this thread.  I think that might be the biggest reason to marry the girls off early.  Being married and having kids ties them more strongly into the community, and makes it harder for them to leave, in practical terms.  It also allows the cult to have more control over them, through their husbands, and by having children to use as leverage over them. 

My uninformed guess is that they also want to do things the old-fashioned way, from back when fourteen years old would not have been an unusual age for a girl to be married.  I find that religious conservatives often have a tendency to value tradition or older practices for their own sake.  I'm kind of like that, myself.  Edit:  Or maybe traditionalists just have a high likelihood of being religious conservatives. 

[MicroBalrog]

Up until very recently (150 years ago) people were expected to be able to start their lives at much earlier ages than they do today. Look up the biographies of guys like Admiral David Farragut, who got his first command at age 12.

Some traditional cultures and societies have that, and that goes all tumbling down when confronted with us modern day people who see such fellows as 'pedophiles' to be taken down on sight.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

150 years ago women couldn't vote and one could own slaves. if the flds brought back those traditions would it be ok with you?

[MicroBalrog]

150 years ago women couldn't vote and one could own slaves. if the flds brought back those traditions would it be ok with you?

What is your point? That everyone that says that perceptions of various subjects vary from time to time supports slave-ownership?

Really, a strawman argument if I ever saw one.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you make me chuckle   first YOU  enter with the concept of how we did things 150 years ago, or at least how you read about it over there, then any further mention of how things were 150 years as it relates to this thread becomes a strawman.  or maybe you don't wanna answer the question? i don't blame ya

[MicroBalrog]

A person asked "Why do people in these weird churches want to mess with people younger than the age of consent."
I replied that their brains function in a different gear, left over from the 1850's.
That's a perfectly legitimate answer.

But for the record, no, I don't think something is good merely because it is a tradition. I also don't think something is good merely because it is the way we do things now. There are many thing that are done now better than in the 1850's, and there are some things that I think we'd be better off if we did like Ancient Greece did it.

[MechAg94]

I don't think that is right though.  I think fistful got it with his first answer.  It is a form of control and to tie them to the family.  If they turn 18, they are also an adult and could legally leave if they got a mind to.  Marry them while they are still under the authority of the parents. 

My great grandfather married his wife at 14 when she was 13.  At least that is what I was told.  They were still together and happy in their 90's.  She wasn't married to some old man though.  I think the laws governing such things were set up later.  Things changed bit through WWI, the Great Depression, and WWII. 

[Perd Hapley]

Thanks, Mech.  I forgot at least two obvious possibilities, though. 

For one, this probably started with a couple of guys that just really had a thing for girls of that age.  And they encouraged other, impressionable, younger men to lean that way as well.  That could be as subtle as continued suggestions to 19-year-old Bill that he and 13-year-old Susie would make a good couple.  Or it could be more overt.  If the women and girls are being forced into things, perhaps the young men are, too.

Secondly, it could be that these guys prefer a very young, inexperienced, and child-like wife that is easier to control, easier to handle, easier to intimidate or simply cow into submission to a man that's several years or even a few decades older. 

But I'm not accusing your great grandfather of that, Mech.  That was a much different situation, partly because he was only fourteen.  And as MicroBalrog pointed out, people (especially girls, I would think) were accustomed to growing up faster in earlier times.   

And for the record, my first, last and only wife was twenty-nine when we got married.  I was twenty-eight.   

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

wife one was 14 when we started dating  looked 25  i was 15

[gunsmith]

cassandra and sara's daddy, your arguments would be greatly enhanced
by the use of either the quote button or the use of quotation marks.
 Quotation marks are these things " and are found to the left of the enter button. You use them like this.

  Gunsmith said to use "quotation marks" to further accurate understanding of what idea I am trying to convey...

The quote button makes it even a little clearer,

Gunsmith said to use "quotation marks" to further accurate understanding of what idea I am trying to convey...

To answer your earlier question, yes cassandra and sara's daddy
 I looked at those horrifying links you provided.
I saw the pictures of the FLDS leader swapping spit with a kid.

 Its disgusting, and because of people who feel the same way as you about Due Process
She will be returned to the FLDS "compound"

Your own failure to read (or understand) the links provided to you are the reason people say you use "straw man" arguments.

WILL YOU PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT THIS LINK!!???

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Ad Hominem, straw man, red herring's  e.t.c all work really well
on the TV shows you watch, in Court they do not count.
When used in Court you lose.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you miss reading the whole link about the supreme court ruling?

in reallity most of those kids should eventually end up back home. its only their organized refusal to identify themselves accurately when in conjunction with the deliberate hiding of birth records by church officials that made running this circus come about. not all those folks abuse kids  just hard to sort the wheat from the chaff when they clam up and circle the wagons



they've got the dna folks are going to the country


in what way do you imagine due process has been denied?and i stress imagine.
as a result of due process jeffs is toast with still more trial to come


ps i don't watch much tv didn't have any for years  its a family tradition   i am a heretic  still believe in books   
and i'm nowhere near as impressed with that site you worship as you are  but again different strokes for different folks


pps  how , in your imagination/opinion, should things have been done?

[roo_ster]

That one is easy.

See chris's post post up above, describing how such ought to be done.  I would add that the processes be targeted at those individuals (not entire religious sects) who have had substantive allegations placed against them.  And that those allegations be investigated for substance before action taken against the family.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

so how in this situation where the group engages in deliberate coverup,  bad id  hidden birth records etc., would you accomplish those goals?  and how long, how many victims, should they wait before taking action?what is acceptable collateral casualtys for you?

[gunsmith]

i'm nowhere near as impressed with that site you worship as you are

& this kind of "argument" is exactly what I am referring to.
You lose debates with this kind of argument, kids get returned to their abusers because the people arguing on their behalf think being smug and unaware of Jurisprudence and simple rules of conduct is proper behavior.

[seeker_two]

so how in this situation where the group engages in deliberate coverup,  bad id  hidden birth records etc., would you accomplish those goals?  and how long, how many victims, should they wait before taking action?what is acceptable collateral casualtys for you?

Setting a precedence of compromising the rights of every American citizen is an unacceptable collateral casualty....

[roo_ster]

so how in this situation where the group engages in deliberate coverup,  bad id  hidden birth records etc., would you accomplish those goals?  and how long, how many victims, should they wait before taking action?what is acceptable collateral casualtys for you?

Police work in a free society is not easy.  If it were easy, it would no longer be a free society, but a police state.

The protections and principles in the COTUS are more valuable than any sect, child, or state agency.  Those protections are something I jealously guard, even if wierdos and criminals also benefit from them.

This sect has been around since the 1800s, believing what they believe and doing what they are doing.  Taking one more week to investigate a lead as credible/incredible is not going to be the end of the world.  Besides, if this sect is so outrageous and flagrant as you have been at pains to show, they WILL slip up. 

Setting a precedence of compromising the rights of every American citizen is an unacceptable collateral casualty....

Preach it, brother!

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

they have  slipped up, repeatedly, and for a variety of reasons a lotta folk sem to close one eye and squint through the other.


the question i asked for you or anyone else was

so how in this situation where the group engages in deliberate coverup,  bad id  hidden birth records etc., would you accomplish those goals?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

"& this kind of "argument" is exactly what I am referring to.
You lose debates with this kind of argument, kids get returned to their abusers because the people arguing on their behalf think being smug and unaware of Jurisprudence and simple rules of conduct is proper behavior."

so in  your mind one "wins" debates?  your life experience is different than mine, greatly.
also you imagine the folks involved in this were unaware of jurisprudence?  perhaps you shouls offer your wise counsel to the various lawyers and judges. since you see things so much clearer.

i don't believe that all those kids were in immediate danger. the problem is that with a deliberate witholding of id its impossible to sort out. folk made a choice to help; obsfucate and impede the investigation. those choices have consequences. as does statutory rape. some ofthose consequences are about to arrive

maybe you missed this part

"in what way do you imagine due process has been denied?and i stress imagine.
as a result of due process jeffs is toast with still more trial to come"

[RoadKingLarry]

cps got a judge to approve the raids and removals. that would seem to comply with the law. another higher court overuled the initial court  again that would indicate to me that the system worked as designed. i thought we used the courts to sort these kinda things out and it seemed that is happening here. some of those folks whos kids got taken might wanna take a look at what role their refusing to id themselves played in their situation

Would that we were all blessed with such divine knowledge as you.

You don't know anyomre about this stink than the rest of us and all we know is what has been in the press. So far CPS has proven NOTHING of there allegations. The whole mess started with an "annonymous" phone call that has been all but proven to have been at best a hoax. Untill I see more proff that actuall criminal activity has taken place I'm going ot error on the side of liberty.
It is human nature to fear that which we don't understand and to hate that which is different and to try to destroy that which is feared and hated.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

"The whole mess started with an "annonymous" phone call that has been all but proven to have been at best a hoax. Untill I see more proff that actuall criminal activity has taken place I'm going ot error on the side of liberty."
the mess started long before  this is the culmination of lots of bad behavior.and th
e call being a hoax would only be a major issue if the cops knew it was bogus. 

as to proof  do pictures and jeffs convictions work? or you want video? how do you reconcile a 15 year old mom with a 30 something dad in a state where age of consent is 17?


'It is human nature to fear that which we don't understand and to hate that which is different and to try to destroy that which is feared and hated. "

no argument there  heck my first wife looked 25 when she was 14 and we were "active"  but i was 15 and it was consensual as opposed to her dad p;imping her to "the prophet"

[gunsmith]

as to proof  dp pictures and jeffs contions work? or you want video?

 That proves Jeffs is a creep, not the whole cult.

how do you reconcile a 15 year old mom with a 30 something dad in a state where age of consent is 17?

If a law has been violated by a 30 year old why do you take the children away from women in their 20's ?

Why not prosecute the 30 year old male? If I violate the law you would arrest my neighbor and take her kids?