Author Topic: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?  (Read 29805 times)

BridgeRunner

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #100 on: June 04, 2008, 08:52:16 AM »
Then why are the refering to it as a "law"? I'm not the one who used the term first. It's called "The Human Rights Act of 1969" That's not a law? Whatever...

1) The answer to your first question depends on what "it" refers to.  No, I'm not related to Slick Willy.  But, if "it" refers to the decision in this case, then the answer is that yes, currently, it is the law that the defendant must compensate the plaintiff in accordance with the court's ruling.  It is *not* the law that any businessperson must provide services to anyone who is a member of a protected class, despite personal reservations or objections. This is because a human rights panel is a very, very low level tribunal and the "law" they pass down only applies to the situation they are directly ruling on. 

2) The Human Rights Act and its recent revision are law in the general sense.  They are binding on the people of New Mexico.  The application of that law used in this decision by this panel is not yet law. 

It is a matter of interpretation.  And since there have been lots and lots of legal rulings in many jurisdictions on what does or does not constitute a "public accommodation, and to my knowledge these generally are not nearly as broad as this panel determined, it is nonsensical to insist that there is no difference at all between this decision and the law itself, as properly drafted and voted into law by the legislature. 

You quoted earlier an AG opinion that the law could not be overturned on referendum.  That is not on point here.  When I'm talking about appeals, I'm not talking appealing directly to the legislature to overturn the law.  I'm talking about the defendant in this case appealing the verdict in this case to a higher court. (Or a district court, since the panel that rendered this decision is an inferior court to even the district court.)

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The panel decided she violated the NMHRA of 1969 and it's relatively recent addition of sexual orientation which, so far I perceive as a "law". We'll just have to wait and see then, won't we?

NMHRA is a law.  The decision of the panel is law only in a very specific sense, as applies to the parties in this case.  Yes, we will wait and see if this interpretation becomes law.

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They're claiming she discriminated in the providing of a public service. It's called the "service industry". Hotels, restaurants, Photographers, HVAC guys, they provide a service.

And that is clearly the argument the panel found persuasive.  However, it's pretty telling that from 1969 through early 2008, even during the mid-80's and early 90's age of political correctness, the high court in New Mexico (or anywhere else) did not find that individuals could be classified as public accommodations.  Such an interpretation reaches far beyond legislative intent.   

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My thinking is laws are in place to force us to do what is morally right.
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Laws exist to prevent us from infringing on other people's rights
Same idea, different words.

I disagree.

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And the ruling that a small business providing professional services on a contract basis is such an accommodation is both not binding law on anyone else in the state or country and is likely to be overturned on appeal.
Again, let's wait and see.

Certainly.  We will wait and see if this becomes law. 

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #101 on: June 04, 2008, 09:06:14 AM »
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My thinking is laws are in place to force us to do what is morally right.

Laws exist to prevent us from infringing on other people's rights
Same idea, different words.

I disagree.
I'll rephrase: Same intent on my part, better way to put it? In more other words, that's kind of what I meant I just expressed it poorly. other than that, thanks for the enlightenment/clarifications.

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280plus

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2008, 09:43:27 AM »
Geez I love a good and relatively clean argument... Wink
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BridgeRunner

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2008, 09:44:57 AM »
Smiley

doczinn

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2008, 04:09:48 PM »
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The law still does all those things, doesn't it? We need to change those laws or get rid of them.
Ok, but in the meantime I see no moral obligation to follow them. None.

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I have no problem with the moral aspects of victimless crime but I also realize that if I partake in any of those activities and get caught I must face consequences.
Why? Why, morally speaking, should I face any consequences at all for an act that is wrong only because someone says so? Even if 51% of the people say so?

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Again, My problem is with crimes that DO infringe on the rights of others and I believe bigotry is one of those crimes.
Bigotry certainly can be and has been used to justify violations of people's rights, but not in this case. Not unless you believe that couple has a right to have their services provided by a person of their choosing. I say they don't. Again, you have the right to associate or not to associate, personally or professionally, with anyone you choose.

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The idea that you think that way brings me back to the disheartening word.
I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean that hanging such a sign would be right, I mean that preventing me from hanging it would be wrong. I mean that, since no-one has a right to enter my business, and thus I'm violating no-one's right by barring them from my business, the matter is thus outside the right of anyone else to judge as "wrong."

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Because, I've gathered that what we have now is not good enough for you folks and I was wondering how you proposed to change things.
Thusly: freedom of association.
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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #106 on: June 05, 2008, 01:52:51 AM »
"I love you more than the white stuff in a zit!" That's good writing right there!  laugh



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280plus

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2008, 02:05:46 AM »
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Ok, but in the meantime I see no moral obligation to follow them. None.
Fine but don't get caught.

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Why? Why, morally speaking, should I face any consequences at all for an act that is wrong only because someone says so? Even if 51% of the people say so?
The perception is that it is best for the whole of society.

 
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Bigotry certainly can be and has been used to justify violations of people's rights, but not in this case. Not unless you believe that couple has a right to have their services provided by a person of their choosing. I say they don't. Again, you have the right to associate or not to associate, personally or professionally, with anyone you choose.
I believe the couple has a right to go to the phone book, pick any photog and be treated with the same respect and courtesy as everyone else. That's all. And if it takes a law to at least approach it being that way, that's not my fault.

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I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean that hanging such a sign would be right, I mean that preventing me from hanging it would be wrong. I mean that, since no-one has a right to enter my business, and thus I'm violating no-one's right by barring them from my business, the matter is thus outside the right of anyone else to judge as "wrong."
The fact that you would have to be prevented from doing so is what's wrong. IMHO

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Thusly: freedom of association.
I said workable. We had freedom of association. There were "No Blacks Allowed" signs in the windows at the time and Rosa Parks got arrested for not giving up her seat to a white man. I'd rather not go back to that.

Afterthought...

If I was an enterprising photog in that area my advertising would begin to include, "Same sex marriages welcome."  laugh

 
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anygunanywhere

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #108 on: June 05, 2008, 04:12:47 AM »
I'm pretty sure I said most of that too, no argument although I'm not sure what you mean by the"distorted" line.

Distorted means when was the last time you ever heard of any instance of racism or bigotry against whites or heterosexuals being prosecuted under any anti discrimination law?

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #109 on: June 05, 2008, 04:34:10 AM »
It's a shame that so many people think it's the .govs job to promote and implement some grand social vision for everyone.

doczinn

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #110 on: June 05, 2008, 04:58:03 AM »
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The perception is that it is best for the whole of society.
The perception also is that guns are bad for the whole of society. My rights are not subject to someone's perception.

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I believe the couple has a right to go to the phone book, pick any photog and be treated with the same respect and courtesy as everyone else.
So if Oleg was hired to shoot an anti-gun piece for HCI or whomever, he'd be obligated to do it? They have a right to his services? Or could he turn them down?

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The fact that you would have to be prevented from doing so is what's wrong.
Define "have to be." I would never hang such a sign, but if I did, it'd be no-one's business to tell me I can't.

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We had freedom of association. There were "No Blacks Allowed" signs in the windows at the time and Rosa Parks got arrested for not giving up her seat to a white man. I'd rather not go back to that.
I don't want to go back to that either. Neither do the vast majority of people, whites included. The few people that would refuse to serve blacks would lose far more black and white business than they would gain in white racist business. I wouldn't go in there.

Rosa Parks, being black, was arrested because the perception was that blacks standing and whites sitting was best for the whole of society. It was the law. And she was absolutely right to defy it.
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wmenorr67

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #111 on: June 05, 2008, 05:06:35 AM »
How about kissing in public.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24983537/

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SEATTLE - Most of the time, a kiss is just a kiss in the stands at Seattle Mariners games. The crowd hardly even pays attention when fans smooch.

But then last week, a lesbian complained that an usher at Safeco Field asked her to stop kissing her date because it was making another fan uncomfortable.

The incident has exploded on local TV, on talk radio and in the blogosphere and has touched off a debate over public displays of affection in generally gay-friendly Seattle.

"Certain individuals have not yet caught up. Those people see a gay or lesbian couple and they stare or say something," said Josh Friedes of Equal Rights Washington. "This is one of the challenges of being gay. Everyday things can become sources of trauma."

As the Mariners played the Boston Red Sox on May 26, Sirbrina Guerrero and her date were approached in the third inning by an usher who told them their kissing was inappropriate, Guerrero said.

The usher, Guerrero said, told them he had received a complaint from a woman nearby who said that there were kids in the crowd of nearly 36,000 and that parents would have to explain why two women were kissing.

"I was really just shocked," Guerrero said. "Seattle is so gay-friendly. There was a couple like seven rows ahead making out. We were just showing affection."

Complaint of 'groping'
On Monday, Mariners spokeswoman Rebecca Hale said that the club is investigating but that the usher was responding to a complaint of two women "making out" and "groping" in the stands.

"We have a strict non-discrimination policy at the Seattle Mariners and at Safeco Field, and when we do enforce the code of conduct it is based on behavior, not on the identity of those involved," Hale said.

The code of conduct  announced before each game  specifically mentions public displays of affection that are "not appropriate in a public, family setting." Hale said those standards are based on what a "reasonable person" would find inappropriate.

Guerrero denied she and her date were groping each other, saying that along with eating garlic fries, they were giving each other brief kisses.

On Tuesday, Guerrero said a Mariners director of guest services had apologized to her. The team spokeswoman could not immediately confirm that.

Call for 'kiss-in'
After the story broke, the Mariners were blasted by the sex-advice columnist Dan Savage, who wrote about the incident on the blog of the Stranger, an alternative weekly paper.

"I constantly see people making out," Savage said. "My son has noticed and asked, `Do they show the ballgame on women's foreheads?'"

Savage called for a "kiss-in" to protest against the Mariners.

Web sites have been swamped with blog postings for and against Guerrero and her date. And the story has people talking in Seattle.

"I would be uncomfortable" seeing public displays of affection between lesbians or gay men, said Jim Ridneour, a 54-year-old taxi driver. "I don't think it's right seeing women kissing in public. If I had my family there, I'd have to explain what's going on."

"It all depends on the degree," Mark Ackerman said as he waited for a hot dog outside Safeco Field before Wednesday's game. "Even for heterosexual couples."

Past under scrutiny
Since the incident, Guerrero's job and her past have come under scrutiny. She works at a bar known for scantily clad women and was a contestant on the MTV reality show "A Shot at Love With Tila Tequila," in which women and men compete for the affection of a bisexual Internet celebrity.

"People are saying it's 15 more minutes for my career," Guerrero said of the ballpark furor, "but this is not making me look very good."

In 2007, an Oregon transit agency chief apologized after a lesbian teenager was kicked off a bus when a passenger complained about her kissing another girl.

Also in 2007, a gay rights group protested a Kansas City, Mo., restaurant they said ejected four women because two of them kissed, and a Texas state trooper was placed on probation in 2004 for telling two gay men who were kissing at the state Capitol that homosexual conduct was illegal in Texas.

"There's a double standard. That's the bottom line," said Pat Griffin, director of the It Takes a Team! Education Campaign, an initiative from the Women's Sports Foundation to eliminate homophobia in sports.


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gunsmith

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #112 on: June 05, 2008, 06:30:54 AM »
explain to your kids that the two women like/love each other.
I don't see it as a big deal (as long as there wasn't groping).
I bet any kid is more interested in the game and not paying attention to the adults.

As for Rosa Parks, taking the only bus in town is a lot different then one of a zillion photogs out there, Rosa and her pals had only one bus, a public conveyance to take...was it a city owned bus?
& it wasn't a law or court decision that changed it, black people had a boycott.
Economics/free market changed it.
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Marnoot

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #113 on: June 05, 2008, 06:37:05 AM »
I believe the couple has a right to go to the phone book, pick any photog and be treated with the same respect and courtesy as everyone else. That's all.

But do you think a couple of any persuasion ought to be able to request a photographer for any event? If this gay couple was requesting a family portrait, or some such, and the photographer said "Nooo! Teh gayz!!" I would agree with you. The photographer doesn't want to be party to a gay wedding. Why should she be forced to attend an event to which she is morally opposed? Should all photographers be required to do gay weddings, nude photoshoots, or anything else someone requests to which they are morally opposed?

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #114 on: June 05, 2008, 07:00:10 AM »

Distorted means when was the last time you ever heard of any instance of racism or bigotry against whites or heterosexuals being prosecuted under any anti discrimination law?
The anti discrimination laws do not cover reverse discrimination although I agree to be fair they should. I've been a victim of reverse discrimination. My complaints were met with, "Reverse discrimination does not exist." This was the mid to late 70's in the military. Long story.

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280plus

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #115 on: June 05, 2008, 07:10:22 AM »

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The perception also is that guns are bad for the whole of society. My rights are not subject to someone's perception.
Agreed, now get out there and work to change that.
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So if Oleg was hired to shoot an anti-gun piece for HCI or whomever, he'd be obligated to do it? They have a right to his services? Or could he turn them down?
Would he be discriminating against them because of their race, sexual or religious orientations? No, so therefore maybe he's discriminating but nothing says he can't, there are no consequences to his actions other that to p off a bunch of antis. I got not problem with that.

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Define "have to be." I would never hang such a sign, but if I did, it'd be no-one's business to tell me I can't.
Let me change the word "you" to the word "anyone".

We had freedom of association. There were "No Blacks Allowed" signs in the windows at the time and Rosa Parks got arrested for not giving up her seat to a white man. I'd rather not go back to that.
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I don't want to go back to that either. Neither do the vast majority of people, whites included. The few people that would refuse to serve blacks would lose far more black and white business than they would gain in white racist business. I wouldn't go in there.
I think the first appearance of any kind of discriminatory sign anywhere would be the spark that sets off an explosion nobody wants. People wouldn't just not patronize the place, somebody'd be trying to burn it down and the owner with it.

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Rosa Parks, being black, was arrested because the perception was that blacks standing and whites sitting was best for the whole of society. It was the law. And she was absolutely right to defy it.
Agreed wholeheartedly but she also accepted the fact that there were consequences and then followed up by getting the laws changed. Now if this photog wins, she will have done the exact same thing. But what a touchy case!

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280plus

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #116 on: June 05, 2008, 07:14:36 AM »
It's a shame that so many people think it's the .govs job to promote and implement some grand social vision for everyone.
Again we are failing to equate the people with the .gov. The .gov implements the will of the people. Give us a viable alternative.

Another thought that occurred to me. We're not talking about "freedom of association" here, we're talking about "Freedom of DIS-association." Just so we're clear.  grin
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280plus

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #117 on: June 05, 2008, 07:19:59 AM »
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How about kissing in public.
Thanks but you're not my type!  cheesy

Me? I've seen it before, I couldn't care less. Long as some guy ain't trying to kiss me, I'm cool...  grin

and yes, good opportunity to explain same sex couples to the kids, again, only  IMHO
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280plus

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #118 on: June 05, 2008, 07:22:17 AM »
You shoulda been with me the time we had to explain the 300 lb drag queen, complete with pink feather boa and beard, to a bunch of younger Boy Scouts on our foolish excursion to Provincetown.  shocked

 laugh
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anygunanywhere

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2008, 08:56:48 AM »

Distorted means when was the last time you ever heard of any instance of racism or bigotry against whites or heterosexuals being prosecuted under any anti discrimination law?
The anti discrimination laws do not cover reverse discrimination although I agree to be fair they should. I've been a victim of reverse discrimination. My complaints were met with, "Reverse discrimination does not exist." This was the mid to late 70's in the military. Long story.



My wife and I, both white sons and daughters of the South, learned what true bigotry is when we moved to the San Francisco Bay area and were subjected to discrimination by the minorities that can never be racists.

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #120 on: June 05, 2008, 10:58:47 AM »
Oh yeah, The BSA is persona non gratis in P-town, believe me.  shocked
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280plus

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #121 on: June 05, 2008, 11:01:54 AM »
This should reveal my feelings about the argument at this point...

Enjoy!

 grin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-pmpgrYQgs
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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #122 on: June 05, 2008, 11:30:57 AM »
This should reveal my feelings about the argument at this point...

Enjoy!

 grin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-pmpgrYQgs

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280plus

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #123 on: June 05, 2008, 01:25:49 PM »
Mauser 98?

I just wanted to add, she was billed as "The Tuetonic Titwillow"  laugh
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Perd Hapley

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Re: So, churches won't be forced to do gay weddings?
« Reply #124 on: June 05, 2008, 02:36:08 PM »
Alright, someone lay down a logical case for abolishing the anti discrimination laws. This I gotta hear...

I laid it out in the very first post.  "No private party should ever be forced to serve everyone who darkens their door, for any reason.  It's legislating morality, in violation of basic human rights; pure and simple."  I and others have expanded on that throughout this thread.  But you insist that your moral view should be forced on everyone, violating their rights of property and association. 

Here's how it is, 280.  You don't have a right to enter another person's property.  You don't have a right to make someone sell you something; be it a product, service, or otherwise.  You don't have a right to work any place you want to.  Neither white people, nor Black people, nor Christian people, nor homosexual people, nor anyone else has such rights. 

Like I said, this isn't about religion or homosexuality.  This is about freedom. 

And finally, you can stop patting your back about how "cool" you are with the lesbians.  Do you know why?  Because I'm even cooler than you.  Do you know how cool I am?  Unlike you, I have firm moral convictions about homosexuality.  But that's not the cool part.  The cool part is that, despite my moral convictions, I can work with lesbians, too.  Heck, I can even work with racists, and I don't like that sort of thing either.

The cool thing, is that I can understand the differences between two things.  So I know that business transactions aren't usually a form of moral approval.  I also know the difference between fixing someone's leaky faucet, and taking photos of their homosexual wedding-type-thingy.  I also know the difference between my moral obligation to treat persons of different races equally, and my legal right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, even if that reason is race or sexual orientation. 
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