Author Topic: BioFuels: Boondoggle or Genius Strategy  (Read 7718 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: BioFuels: Boondoggle or Genius Strategy
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2008, 11:13:56 AM »
Edit:  Looks like Balog beat me to it.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: BioFuels: Boondoggle or Genius Strategy
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2008, 11:24:08 AM »
My gripe is that the pro-ethanol lobby plays upon peoples' fears of the Middle East.  They presume (falsely) that most of our oil comes from the IslamoFascistTerrorist nations, and that we're helping to blow up little babies every time we fill up our tanks.  Ethanol will change that, they say.

Ethanol won't change that, because it isn't true.

Switching to ethanol (even if we could produce enough of it - we can't) doesn't benefit the US geopolitically.  Basically we'd reduce our demand for Canadian and Mexican oil, which has never been a risk or danger to the US. 

Balog

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Re: BioFuels: Boondoggle or Genius Strategy
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2008, 11:30:16 AM »
There is a world of difference between being reliant on radical Islamist terrorist states, and being reliant on Canada and Mexico.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: BioFuels: Boondoggle or Genius Strategy
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2008, 11:57:36 AM »
There is a world of difference between being reliant on radical Islamist terrorist states, and being reliant on Canada and Mexico.

Not really.  Reliant is reliant.  Just because the source is a country with differences in religious beliefs doesn't make it any less critical.  It only makes it a bit more uncomfortable.

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MechAg94

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Re: BioFuels: Boondoggle or Genius Strategy
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2008, 12:05:10 PM »
As far as US oil reserves, I thought I had heard that we have hardly even attempted to explore the offshore potential on the east and west coasts of the US.  I don't think anyone is allowed to even explore those areas.  I have heard it speculated that there are some large natural gas reserves off the east coast and oil off the west coast.  Considering they keep finding new oil reserves deeper in the Gulf of Mexico, I can only imagine what exists off shore elsewhere.  There is a still a lot of territory in the US and elsewhere that has not been explored. 
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Gewehr98

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Re: BioFuels: Boondoggle or Genius Strategy
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2008, 03:33:39 PM »
Quote
My gripe is that the pro-ethanol lobby plays upon peoples' fears of the Middle East.  They presume (falsely) that most of our oil comes from the IslamoFascistTerrorist nations, and that we're helping to blow up little babies every time we fill up our tanks.  Ethanol will change that, they say.

Ethanol won't change that, because it isn't true.

Switching to ethanol (even if we could produce enough of it - we can't) doesn't benefit the US geopolitically.  Basically we'd reduce our demand for Canadian and Mexican oil, which has never been a risk or danger to the US.

And your gripe is baseless.

For the record (again):

1.  Ethanol isn't intended to replace petroleum.  It never was, and never will be. It's fear-mongering, ands gets trotted out again and again, usually in the form of, "There ain't enough corn/switchgrass/algae in the U.S. to fill all our vehicles."  Well, no $hit, Sherlock, and I defy anybody to point out where such an untrue claim was ever made by the ETOH folks.  They haven't.  It's promulgated by the same folks (oil industry?) who say it takes more gasoline energy to make a gallon of E-85 than it delivers, and that their grocery prices are through the roof because ethanol is being produced in the cornbelt.  The former is absolutely silly if you know anything about the ETOH process, and the latter totally ignores the fact that groceries are delivered in diesel trucks that pay $4.75/gallon or more for their petroleum based fuel, and aren't supposed to pass on the extra costs to the consumer.  Go figure.

2. People are pissy that ETOH production is being subsidized with tax money.  Again, no $hit, Sherlock, farms have been subsidized since I was knee-high to a grasshopper - those that didn't get foreclosed on, that is. Working as a kid on a dairy farm some 30 years ago, I knew the milk and cheese were getting help.  If our tax dollars subsidize NASA research or help out my favorite unwed teenage syphilitic mother charity, that's ok.  Researching upstart alternative energy sources?  Must be the work of the devil.  Again, who is gonna invest private cash into alternative fuels?  Big Oil?  rolleyes

3.  Corn ETOH isn't a means to an end.  It's a start, and it was an easy start thanks to our alcoholic forefathers and their propensity to make booze from grains.  Hell, it bought us NASCAR, for chrissakes. It also means as we get better at the process, we can use the experience to do the switchover to cellulosic ethanol.  That's on the horizon as we speak, and most distilleries in my neck of the woods were built to make use of that technology as it becomes available.  I know because I am being interviewed for a lab manager position at another new ETOH plant in Wisconsin, and they have great hopes for the newer technique.

4.  I note with interest that GM announced today they're shutting down 4 assembly plants, including the Tahoe/Suburban facility just south of me, with a couple thousand employees at Janesville alone.  The announcement came with a statement from GM management that they will make this a permanent shutdown, no changeover to econoboxes in those buildings, because they are of the opinion that petroleum prices will not recede below $3.00/gallon - ever.  For Detroit to fess up that the days of cheap gas are over means they don't hold a lot of promise for whatever smoke is getting blown up posteriors regarding a price drop. It's 30+ years after the 1973 Arab Oil Embargo, but maybe the Detroit juggernaut is finally responding to rudder inputs.

Yes, I am a member of the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition.  Yes, my family sells corn grown on previously fallow PIK acreage.  No, our black angus beef herd is not starving, and no, our farms are not in danger of foreclosure - for a short while, that is.  Corn will drop as cellulosic ETOH takes over, and as people scream for somebody's head on a chopping block because it takes $160 or more to fill up their Suburbans, they might just have to modify their lifestyles accordingly.  But they'll bitch, and they have no right to do so if they're not working on a solution to the problem, instead of contributing to it.  undecided

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: BioFuels: Boondoggle or Genius Strategy
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2008, 04:04:46 PM »
Yeah yeah, all hail the great Ethanol.  Go corn.  Go America.  Keep lining farmers' pockets with public money.

1.  One of the biggest selling points of ethanol is that it will reduce our dependence on foreign oil.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard that whopper of a lie.  We don't have a problem with foreign oil, being that most of our oil comes from our friends in our own safe corner of the world.  And even if we did, ethanol isn't going to improve matters.

2.  With grains selling at all time highs, and worldwide food shortages becoming a serious problem, farm subsidies are wretched idea.  The fact that there are other stupid subsidies doesn't justify the stupidity of ethanol subsidies.

And you notion that alternative fuels won't be developed without Big Brother doing it for us is silly.  Entrepreneurs will develop any technology that shows promise (and even some that don't), and they'll do it on their own.  The reason they aren't developing corn ethanol on their own is because ethanol doesn't show any promise, economically speaking, without massive government handouts.

3.  Ethanol is just a start??  Seems like a pretty good excuse for the fact that ethanol doesn't amount to anything.  If the real goal is cellulosic ethanol, then let's quit wasting everyone's money on corn ethanol.  We can learn our lessons on how to produce cellulosic ethanol by producing cellulosic ethanol.  If cellulosic ethanol isn't ready yet, then let's save our money and wait until it is.

4.  Yeah, gas prices are high.  And yeah, GM is shutting down some plants.  Neither situation will be improved by ethanol.

Oy.  The sane thing to do regarding ethanol is to drop it.  We have plenty of conventional fuel, right here in our own backyard, enough to last for generations.  As soon as someone discovers a better alternative the market will switch over on its own. 

Really, let's quit pretending that corn ethanol is good for anyone except the corn farmers.

Bogie

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Re: BioFuels: Boondoggle or Genius Strategy
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2008, 06:41:14 PM »
Don't worry... After the next big domestic terrorist attack, we'll glass an offending country or two (because there's gonna be crowds outside 1600 screaming to do it or else), and take their oil.
 
And if we're bright, we'll develop a lot of nuclear energy, wind energy, and solar...
 
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Gewehr98

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Re: BioFuels: Boondoggle or Genius Strategy
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2008, 10:25:13 PM »
As a member of a large farming family, I desire HTG et alia to try that vocation for a while.  Then they can report back to me later on how easy it is, and discover why dairy and corn are subsidized by Uncle Sam these days when nobody wants to be a farmer or even risk it for a summer or two.  Hint: it's back-breaking work, and you're one hailstorm away from going bankrupt as you see your crops destroyed.  Doing it for the money?  No, try doing it to prevent foreclosure on the family property.

In the meantime, keep slurping down the imported crude, and for Gawd's sake, don't DARE try to come up with something that gets us off of that teat, if even in the nascent stages.  All hail ethanol?  Yeah, sure.  All hail thinking outside the box. I've run nothing but E-85 in my truck for 2 years straight now, and will do so just to spite those who would play grasshopper while the ants work away.  Bogie's right, nuclear, wind, solar, biofuel, or we do the same thing we did in 1973, again. Some talk the talk, others walk the walk. 

And I'm pretty much tired of HTG's confrontational tone vs. a rational discussion, so this one's done run its course.
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