Author Topic: US Mint steals collector's coins  (Read 5240 times)

Telperion

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US Mint steals collector's coins
« on: August 25, 2005, 04:24:58 PM »
I wish Ms. Langbord good luck in her suit.  Lesson learned: never voluntarily hand over anything of potential value to the government.  undecided  

Quote
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/25/rare.coins.ap/index.html

PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania (AP) -- The U.S. Mint seized 10 Double Eagle gold coins from 1933, among the rarest and most valuable coins in the world, that were turned in by a jeweler seeking to determine their authenticity.

Joan S. Langbord plans a federal court lawsuit to try to recover them, her attorney, Barry H. Berke, said Wednesday. Langbord found the coins among the possessions of her father, longtime Philadelphia jeweler Israel Switt, who had acknowledged having sold some of the coins decades ago. She now operates her father's business.

David Lebryk, acting director of the Mint, had announced in a news release that the rare coins, which were never put in circulation, had been taken from the Mint "in an unlawful manner" in the mid-1930's and now were "recovered."

The coins, which are so rare that their value is almost beyond calculation, are public property, he said.

But Berke said Mint officials couldn't prove the coins had been stolen, or were subject to forfeiture.

...

Standing Wolf

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US Mint steals collector's coins
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2005, 04:48:39 PM »
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...Berke said Mint officials couldn't prove the coins had been stolen, or were subject to forfeiture.
What government wants, government takes.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

K Frame

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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2005, 05:08:09 PM »
These coins were never released to the public due to the US going off the gold standard.

If they're authentic 1933 Double Eagles, there's no way for them to be legitimately in circulation.
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brimic

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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2005, 05:56:24 PM »
I agree with ^ above.  If it were stolen property 70 years ago, its still stolen property today.
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Telperion

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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2005, 06:31:41 PM »
Hmm, may have spoke too soon.  Some research says there's no statue of limitations for claims of stolen Fed property.  She's probably SOL then.

Guest

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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2005, 06:04:11 AM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
These coins were never released to the public due to the US going off the gold standard.

If they're authentic 1933 Double Eagles, there's no way for them to be legitimately in circulation.
Everything the government "owns" it stole in the first place. In the same year, it forced citizens to sell it their gold at $20/oz. and then raised the official price a short time later to $35.

charby

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US Mint steals collector's coins
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2005, 06:06:07 AM »
once again honest citizen gets punished...
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K Frame

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US Mint steals collector's coins
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2005, 06:42:43 AM »
"Everything the government "owns" it stole in the first place."

Jesus christ...

So, in other words, the US government as established by the Constitution has absolutely no validity at all.

Go nuts. Grab your guns and start your overthrow.

rolleyes

Let's look at it this way.

Since the government is "of the people, by the people, for the people," and these coins were a product of that government (i.e., us), this woman has absolutely NO expectation of being able to profit from to the exclusion of the rest of us.
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K Frame

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US Mint steals collector's coins
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2005, 06:48:55 AM »
"once again honest citizen gets punished..."

How is she being "punished"?

Until they were sold, the coins had no value. If they were her father's she obviously didn't pay for them.

I find it exceptionally difficult to believe that her father didn't know about the coins, or their history, or their dubious legitimacy.

Granted, she may not have, but a few minutes research on the web will turn up lots of information on them.
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Brad Johnson

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US Mint steals collector's coins
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2005, 07:16:59 AM »
My question is, if they were never able to be legally circulated and private ownership was outlawed, then how was the owner of the supposedly "only example to exist" able to sell it at private auction just recently? Why didn't the gov't seize that one as well?

Something fishy here....

Brad
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K Frame

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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2005, 07:29:41 AM »
It was seized.

From Wikipedia...

"One of the missing double eagles was acquired by King Farouk of Egypt, who was known for being playboy and a spendthrift. He was also a voracious collector of many things, including Imperial Faberge eggs, antique aspirin bottles, postage stamps - and coins. In 1944 Farouk purchased a 1933 Double Eagle, and in strict adherence with the law, his ministers applied to the United States Treasury Department for an export license for the coin. Mistakenly, just days before the Mint theft was discovered, the license was granted. The Treasury Department attempted to work through diplomatic channels to request the return of the coin from Egypt, but World War II delayed their efforts for several years. In 1952 King Farouk was deposed in a coup d'etat, and many of his possessions were made available for public auction (run by Sotheby's) -- including the double eagle coin. The United States Government requested the return of the coin, and the Egyptian government stated that it would comply with the request. However, at that time the double eagle coin disappeared and was not seen again in Egypt.

A double eagle surfaced again after over forty years of obscurity, when Stephen Fenton purchased a 1933 Double Eagle, along with other US gold coins, in London. Fenton was arrested by US Secret Service agents and the British coin dealer was questioned. Although he initially told investigators he bought the coin over the counter at his shop, he later changed his story. Under sworn testimony, he insisted the double eagle had originated with the collection of King Farouk, though there was no way to be absolutely certain of this. Charges against Fenton were subsequently dropped, and he defended his ownership of the coin in court, and in 2001 the case was settled. The terms of the agreement included: ownership of the double eagle was returned to the United States Government, and the coin could then legally be sold at auction. The United States Treasury issued a document to "issue and monetize" the coin, thereby making it the only legal tender gold coin in the United States.

When the coin was seized, it was transferred to a holding place believed to be safe: the Treasury vaults of the World Trade Center. When the court settlement was reached in July of 2001, the coin was transferred to Fort Knox for safekeeping. Less than two months later, the World Trade Center was destroyed in the September 11, 2001 attacks.

On July 30, 2002, the 1933 double eagle was sold to an anonymous bidder at a Sotheby's auction for $6.6 million, plus the 15 percent seller's premium, and an additional $20 was needed to monetize the face value of the coin so it would be legal to own, bringing the final sales price to $7,590,020.00, almost twice the previous record for a coin. Half the $7.56 million was delivered to the United States Treasury, plus the $20 to monetize the coin; while Stephen Fenton was entitled to the other half. The whole auction took less than nine minutes.

In August 2005, The U.S. Mint seized 10 1933 Double Eagle gold coins from the son of a Jewish jeweler in Philadelphia."


Ownership of the coin, as noted above, reverted to the US Gov't.

It could easily be that a similar deal will be struck with the woman in Philadelphia.

But here's the real kick in the butt...

That one of a kind Double Eagle just got 10 siblings, and their values, if sold at auction, have now dropped dramatically. It's not exactly rare anymore.

And, in a CNN article (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/07/30/double.eagle/) leading up to the sale of the single in 2002, the Mint issued a statement saying that any other 1933 Double Eagles found in circulation would be seized and melted down per the 1937 order.

You have to admit, though, it's a damned fine looking coin...

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charby

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US Mint steals collector's coins
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2005, 08:28:35 AM »
how is it an innocent person

"The family attorney said the coins were found recently, and Langbord and her son, Roy, notified the Mint of the discovery. Mint officials asked to authenticate the coins, then confiscated them after doing so, Berke said."

enough said

Charby
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K Frame

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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2005, 08:33:36 AM »
Have they charged the family members with a crime?

No.

Have they accused the family members of a crime?

No.

As has already been established, these coins were stolen property as they were never released for circulation and are under a standing destruction order.

enough said.


I find it very interesting that the coins were minted in Philadelphia, and that's where this cache was discovered. It would be truly interesting to know if the shop owner and the man accused of taking the coins from the mint, George McCann, had any sort of connection.
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Guest

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US Mint steals collector's coins
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2005, 08:41:41 AM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
"Everything the government "owns" it stole in the first place."

Jesus christ...

So, in other words, the US government as established by the Constitution has absolutely no validity at all.
Were you a signatory to the constitution? Was any living person? In case you hadn't noticed, the constitution is no longer the law of the land...nor is it followed. For instance, it authorizes only coins as money. By confiscating or destroying the coins, the state was doing the opposite of what it was authorized to do.

Quote
Go nuts. Grab your guns and start your overthrow.

rolleyes

Let's look at it this way.

Since the government is "of the people, by the people, for the people," and these coins were a product of that government (i.e., us), this woman has absolutely NO expectation of being able to profit from to the exclusion of the rest of us.
We ("us") are not the government. That is a fiction taught in the public schools to make the gullible think they are free. The federal government is a mafia-like, monopolistic, protection racket that forces us to buy over-priced and impotent security. Any gold they had, they stole (well, they didn't mine it, did they?). Any money used to make the coins, likewise.

 The saving of the coins from destruction was a heroic action taken by the lady's father and deserves acclaim and reward, not derision.

Gewehr98

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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2005, 09:26:51 AM »
Better headline to the thread would read:

"U.S. Mint recovers stolen coins from collector"

Just like the U.S. Springfield Armory Museum recovered the stolen Model 1839 Musketoon recently. No statute of limitations on stolen Federal property - pretty cut-and-dry.

http://www.nps.gov/spar/pphtml/newsdetail8275.html
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K Frame

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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2005, 10:31:42 AM »
Jesus x 10

Take your medication. Your spraying spittle everywhere. rolleyes
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Winston Smith

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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2005, 12:09:34 AM »
Why can't you guys just ignore mercedes like the troll he is?
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brimic

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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2005, 03:01:02 AM »
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Why can't you guys just ignore mercedes like the troll he is?
Uh, bad form. You should at least put you words in [sarcasm][/sarcasm] or at least a winking smiley after the sentence.


M-R does have a point in that the government has screwed all of us and has pretty much left us at the mercy of multinational bankers by taking us off the gold standard. But even a thief still has a right to their property if it stolen from them.


At least we can still go to Walmart or the post office and get the crappy gold plated
 Sacawajawa coins  rolleyes
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Silver Bullet

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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2005, 03:46:09 AM »
The outside layer of the Sacagawea is made up of 77% copper, 12% zinc, 7% manganese, and 4% nickel.  There's an inner core of pure copper.

Sacagawea composition

No gold, just "golden".

K Frame

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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2005, 09:13:54 AM »
Another call for the gold standard as the panacea of everything.

Sorry, but that ain't the case.

If you want to crush the American economy in a way that oil prices never would, put us back on the gold standard.

It's also curious to note that in the late 1800s many in the United States viewed the gold standard as nothing by an attempt by eastern bankers to control the financial processes in the country and force most people into massive debt.

Sounds vaguely familiar...
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US Mint steals collector's coins
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2005, 09:39:52 AM »
Quote from: Winston Smith
Why can't you guys just ignore mercedes like the troll he is?
From where did the government get the gold for that coin?