Author Topic: I'm just wondering (some thoughts-semi rant)  (Read 5683 times)

grampster

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I'm just wondering (some thoughts-semi rant)
« on: August 26, 2005, 05:55:20 AM »
Every day we are barraged with polls showing that "The Man in the Street" no longer supports the president in this or that.

Specifically, his support is below 50% on his handling of The War on Terror.  What I wonder about, and have never seen,  are any poll data that says the reason why folks may be disatisfied.   My question is perhaps many folks do not think we're being aggressive enough?  I wonder what the numbers would be if the question were asked in a different way?

The media seems to give the impression that we do not support the war on terror.  I don't believe that.  Somehow, I have the feeling that the question is skewed to give that impression.  But, I wonder.  The lesson of Vietnam, which is always bandied about, but never verbalized, was that if you find war necessary, then you see it through with a terrible focus.  This is the lesson:  You conquer the enemy, unequivically.  You have mercy and rehabilitate him after you have conquered him.  It ain't pretty, but it is the only way to do it.

THe president seems to be at a point where he has lost his fire.  One party controls  the presidency, the house and senate, yet struggles more with trying to be nice to the opposition rather than doing what they were elected to do.  The economy is fairly steady and growing in places.  It's struggling in others, such as in Michigan where I live.  Our manufacturing, especially in autos, is slipping away.  Manufacturing in general is going overseas.  I wonder whether this will ever change.  Gas prices well...that's obvious, China and India etc are bidding the price up because they can.  When your people are slaves and the your industry is state owned or owned by ruling families, you can easily pay more for energy to run the infrastructure.  We have a poltical mandate to be able to move forward, but it seems that it is being squandered.

(One question that legitimately begs being asked regarding the middle east is this.
If it's all about oil (energy) then why bother with the middle east in the first place?    Leave them to their own devices and redirect the hundreds of billions of dollars toward North and South America to develop our own hemisphere's energy bounty.  With that amount of money it would be more worthwhile to override the ecological wackos and carefully exploit the resources available in our hemisphere, and pull up the cultures to the south of us at the same time. That may stabilize our manufacturing problems if we had open borders in the West.  Better to lay some constitutional republicanism and capitalism on our hemisphere than wallowing in the tribalism of the East.  Who says our kids and posterity could not go South to seek their fortune?  The trouble with that is how then do we deal with the fanatical tribalists that will still not be content with our exisistance?  Do we ignore them in these times of wmd's, or do we destroy them?  That is a worthwhile discussion imho.  
Go back and read some history about Alexander the Great and you will find the most difficult people that he dealt with were the tribes in the area of Afghanistan.  They were the only people he ever actually feared because of their culture of death.  "...(their) religion is fatalism.  They worship freedom and death.  The language they understand is terror.  To prevail, one must be more terrible than they.  This takes some going, as these clansmen, like all rude and insular races, perceive each person outside their blood sphere not as a human being but as a beast or devil.  You cannot negotiate with such foes; they are proof against all blandishment or subornation and are animated by warrior pride alone.  They would rather die than submit.  They are vain, greedy, cunning, vicious, mean, cowardly, gallant, generous, stubborn, and corrupt.  They ar capable of endurance beyond all human measure and bear such suffering, of both flesh and spirit, as would break a block of stone."  "The Virtues of War, Steven Pressfield, The marches of Alexander.  Does this not sound a lot like the feudal tribalism of Wahhabist Islam?  Wahhabism is merely a tool that promulgates the tribalism that has always existed in the East)

While I'm on the subject, I have great difficulty with people who say that they support the troops, but oppose the war.  That is hypocracy imho.  Our warriors are carrying out the war, they believe in their mission, they are volunteers.  So how can one support the people who are willingly carrying out the mission?  Why don't those folks just be honest and say that they don't like our culture, do not agree with what is necessary to protect it, and are opposed to everyone and everything connected with doing so.  That's why I have such a problem with those on the left.  They do not have a core value they are willing to defend without trying to soften it with bs in order to make themselves feel good.  If we're going to have an argument about our direction, then base it in honesty and honor.

I heard a guy on the radio yesterday that said he opposes the war and the troops.  
While I vehemently disagree with his position, at least he had the courage to finally admit to the truth of his position.  He may be wrong, but at least he had the honor to be honest.  That is why I can't respect the opinion of a hypocrite, he's not even being honest with himself.  rolleyes

End Of Rant
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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I'm just wondering (some thoughts-semi rant)
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2005, 06:39:09 AM »
As ashamed as I am to admit it, my own Mom and Dad both see Bush as an incompetent  boob and speak vehemently to anyone who will endure them that we should pull out NOW and let Iraq crumble from within.  When I point out that I'd rather be fighting there than here, they tell me that's ridiculous and it would never happen.

Maybe I was adopted.

P.S. I emailed your post to them because it contains alot of sense, and you can't just give up on your parents.  
Maybe it's a phase and they'll grow out of it. ;-)

Werewolf

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I'm just wondering (some thoughts-semi rant)
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2005, 06:51:03 AM »
The media commonly uses what are called push polls. A push poll is one where the questions are worded in such a way that the only reasonable response is the one the pollster wants. Thus the poll pushes the numbers.

You'll know a push type question if you're ever asked one - I wish I could think of a reasonable example - anyone?

This is a gross over exagerated example:

The pollster asks "Which would you prefer: More gun control or no gun control?

Most folks think that some gun control is necessary and the pollster knows that.

Guess which response most will pick.

Then the poll is reported as 87% of those polled want more gun control.

See how it works?
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garrettwc

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I'm just wondering (some thoughts-semi rant)
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2005, 07:52:59 AM »
Grampster, I don't see your post as a rant so much as a well though out statement of where we are and why.

As for the polls, werewolf nailed it. The polls say what the pollsters want them to say.

Moondoggie

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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2005, 08:52:59 AM »
I'm hoping someday for a President who's an adhearant of the "Harry Truman School of Public Speaking"...

I'd like to hear President Bush say the following:

"Anybody remember the Senior Senator from Massachussets' herosim at the bridge in Chappiquidick?  Is there anybody who doesn't realize that he's a drunken, lying, hypocritical lout who's only claim to fame is his two dead brothers?  Why in God's Green Earth do you people up there keep electing this POS to the Senate?"

"Is there anybody who doesn't know that Nancy Pelozi is a lying dirtbag who rose to power through backstabbing and political infighting of the nastiest variety?"

Or how about,  "We were elected to control of 2 out of 3 barnches of government, and we're going to govern like it....the Democrats can whine all they want but it's not gonna change the outcome.  Oh, Yeah, while we're in control, we're gonna fix the other branch of government the way we want it."

I'm a firm believer that if Pres Geroge H. W. Bush would have said something like:  "Here's your choice America...Me who's served our country with honor in combat and government and lived an exemplary private life OR Bill Clinton;  dope smoking, draft dodging, womanizing, lying scumbag and his leftist spouse.  For goodness sake, "I smoked marijuana, but I didn't inhale."  my dying ass!"  I think the election would have turned out differently.  I'd gone after that lying snake James Carville with a vengence, too.

America didn't get TO BE America by fighting with one hand tied behind our back!

OK, rant off now.
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client32

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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2005, 10:09:09 AM »
"While I'm on the subject, I have great difficulty with people who say that they support the troops, but oppose the war.  That is hypocracy imho."

I have heard a lot of people agree with this recently.  I don't know why all of the sudden.  They may have always been saying that it is hypocracy and I am just now listening, or it may be that everyone is getting tired of the same old lines.  

grampster, I agree with garrettwc, I see this as a well thought out statement.  Very well written.

Moondoggie, I am also ready for much of that.  Especially, "We were elected to control of 2 out of 3 barnches of government, and we're going to govern like it....the Democrats can whine all they want but it's not gonna change the outcome.  Oh, Yeah, while we're in control, we're gonna fix the other branch of government the way we want it."  I am sick of seeing bending for the sake of whatever the hell is the reason to do it.  I would even think it was stupid if the left did the same thing if they were in power.
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grampster

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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2005, 12:54:29 PM »
Moon, I have often talked with swmbo about how I'd like to hear one of our elected officials make a speech in the manner that you have discussed.  Somehow, it seems to me, that would be such a surprisingly refreshing thing.  On the other hand, I'd be equally content to have them confront reality and say that party  politics is one thing, but our national security, our way of life, our culture, our future is more important than picking nits over half truths, and outright bs.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

toro

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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2005, 03:26:31 PM »
I believe they turn the numbers around.  Remember when Bush got elected by 3.5 million votes over Kerry?  The polls showed Kerry way ahead.  I think most polls are done by democrats.

 Also most conservatives don't like polls and won't answer them.  So polls are then slanted towards liberals.  I don't believe Clinton was ever as popular as the press make him out to be.


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And he called unto him two centurions, saying, Make ready two hundred soldiers to go to Caesa'rea, and horseman threescore and ten, and spearmen two hundred, at the third hour of the night; and provide them beasts, that they may set Paul on, and bring him safe unto Felix the governor.

grampster

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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2005, 04:07:04 PM »
mrs toro:  +1

PS" How come you're always talking for Toro?
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

toro

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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2005, 05:11:23 PM »
He thinks the same way I do.  I type 50 words a minute and he types one word a minute.  It's faster if I make the posts.  Our aniversary is Aug. 28th.  46 years.  He is enjoying the NASCAR races and so am I:)


He may get inspired to post any day now, you just never know.  It may be hard to believe but he does all the talking.


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Standing Wolf

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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2005, 05:16:32 PM »
Quote
America didn't get TO BE America by fighting with one hand tied behind our back!
There are plenty of people who earnestly desire to tear down America and replace it with a somewhat larger, more prosperous version of East Germany.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

grampster

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« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2005, 06:56:18 AM »
Mr and Mrs Toro:

Happy Aniversary!  We'll celebrate 39 on 10-8

"...one word a minute"   Har Har Har Har.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

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« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2005, 08:39:09 AM »
Quote from: grampster
...While I'm on the subject, I have great difficulty with people who say that they support the troops, but oppose the war.  That is hypocracy imho.  Our warriors are carrying out the war, they believe in their mission, they are volunteers.  So how can one support the people who are willingly carrying out the mission?  Why don't those folks just be honest and say that they don't like our culture, do not agree with what is necessary to protect it, and are opposed to everyone and everything connected with doing so.  ...
I agree that it is inconsistant to say that one is opposed to the Iraq war but supports the troops fighting it. But it does not follow that opposing both means that one necessarily opposes the "culture".

 It depends on your definition of american culture. Do you mean the current culture of welfare, warfare, socialism, imperialism and global hegemony? Or, do you mean the original american culture of rugged individualism, free trade, liberty, non-intervention, peace, fiscal responsibility and self-reliance?

jefnvk

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« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2005, 09:09:02 AM »
I think it is more the 'need it now and cheap' mentality.

It couldn't be done in a year, so we have lost interest.  It is old news, people need something fresh.  Our soldiers are dying (despite the fact it is one of the least bloody wars ever), so it isn't worth it to some people.

Clinton launching missles was OK because it was quick, and no Americans were in danger.  Bush's war is not OK, because it may take a while and involves some risk.
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toro

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« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2005, 12:34:53 PM »
I wonder if those who are against the war would be happy wearing Turbans and Burqas?

 If we give up and come home, those united against us will infiltrate our country.  In fact they already have.  I believe President Bush knows more than the people getting paid by the left wing to parade in front of his home while he is trying to have some vacation time.  This has been going on since the 80s.  They have been putting bombs where our military men sleep and on our ships etc, etc.

As soon as they perfect the nuclear suitcase bomb they can do even more damage.  Wake up and smell the coffee.  Either we go over there and make them unhappy and lose lives or we invite them over here.  I wouldn't mind if some of the young girls would wear the Burqa, but I don't think Mr. Toro would be very happy.



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P95Carry

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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2005, 03:32:37 PM »
Dick - you speak well Sir. Smiley
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toro

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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2005, 04:02:55 PM »
Moondoggie

I would love to hear the President announce:  
"Chappiquidick is now a cold case file.  We will put the full resources of the FBI on this case to find out why Kennedy let Mary Jo die."  He needs to spend the rest of his life in prison.  Why didn't he get a life sentence for murder?  Instead he just gets on TV and says I'm sorry.  It is never too late for justice. IMHO



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grampster

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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2005, 05:57:17 PM »
Mercedes,  
     The second.  But time and circumstance tends to modify things, sometimes in ways that are not satisfactory.  Reality seems to intrude on life from time to time.  So reality says we need to not only react but be proactive at times.  Proactivity may not be pretty or desirable, but perhaps necessary.  If the goal is worthy, then action needs to happen.  To sit on the sidelines and snipe with no alternative is not worthy of heed, whatsoever.
 
jefnvk makes a point that is quite valid regarding the American propensity for speed.  If it can't be done in a year, it ain't worth doing.  Instant gratification seems to be a driving force in much of what we do today.  That is too bad.  Anwar Sadat discussed his admiration for Americans in the context of the history of the world and cultures that had been around for a long time, vis a vis the Egyptians and the Orientals.  Sadat understood patience, but said if Americans had a positive side and a negative side it was our impatience.  We moved the heavens and the earth and made a culture that was outstanding and worthy because of our impatience.  It was a credit.  But at the same time, our impatience also stood in the way at times.  This, perhaps is one of those times.

Perhaps if history was a major focus of study in our government schools, without the modification of revisionism designed to make us  feel good, reality in America might be more grounded in fact than fiction.  History is a map that allows us to carve out a future.  We don't seem to want to heed that reality.

I brought up Alexander the Great in my original post because his accomplishments were stunning not only for the brutality and focus in what occured, but more so in the fact of his grasp of human nature that allowed him to accomplish what he did.  What he did was stunning when put in the context of the time and distance and "strategery" of his actions.  His army was never larger than 50,, Yet he defeated Darius, the King of Persia twice.  Faced and defeated him the first time vs 250,000 of Darius' troops.  The second battle was near Babylon and Darius had a million two hundred fifty thousand and Alexander had 50,000 again and still defeated Darius.  It's about focus, belief in oneself and the the mission.  Alexander believed something about himself and as a result accomplished much, which changed the entire future of the world.  There is something to be said about the underlying reality of vision.
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thorn

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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2005, 08:10:35 PM »
i think going to Iraq was about the only good decision Bush has made. most of the "homeland security" is a bunch of garbage aimed at drug users and regular folks privacy removal.

the environmental policy of bush is non existant, his handling of taxes, the energy bill, stuff like that is what makes me know he is a boob.

my only complaint about Iraq would be to the American people= Why are'nt All of us behind this, like ten years ago, so we could do it with more force, maybe it would be done faster.

at any rate, yeah ultimately, i would sure rather fight there than here, especially with a slightly more clear enemy over there.

we can't keep letting our oil $$ fund nazi regimes

toro

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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2005, 03:52:04 AM »
Blackburn  -- Yes we may have to go into Iran also.  We have been a target to these people since the 1980s.

To answer your first question:
The Taliban is connected to Iraq because of their religion.  Don't you think that they would ban together for the purpose of defeating a country or countries who are Christian and Jewish?  I believe they will ban together at some point because of their religious beliefs.  I think they want to rid the world of Christians and Jews and Atheist.  This all goes back in the Bible to Abraham who is the father of the Arab nation and also the father of the Jewish nation.  A study of these origins would help you to understand their way of thinking.

From Global Discussion Forum -- The results of a "Briefcase" Nuclear Attack.  By the way don't you think other nations with a hatred for the United States would help?  As far as protecting OUR nuclear materials.  I say, "Where there is a will there is a way.  They may figure out a way to get to our nuclear materials.  We must be ever vigilant.

To answer your second:
From Global Discussion Forum: The results of a "Briefcase" Nuclear Attack:
Define what a nuclear bomb really is and how they work. I do this in order to avoid confusion and to clarify the implications of such weapons.



All bombs contain explosive material which explodes when suitably triggered. In conventional weapons, the explosive material is something that can undergo some chemical reaction that proceeds very fast and releases a lot of energy. Basically it can `burn' so fast that it explodes. The explosive material in a nuclear bomb undergoes a nuclear reaction at a very fast rate and is therefore roughly analogous to a chemical explosive.



An important difference between a chemical and a nuclear reaction is that the latter releases roughly a million times more energy (per gram) than a chemical one. This difference in output or, more properly, yield, is a reflection of the fact that chemistry deals only with interactions of electrons, whilst a nuclear one deals with the energy released by the fusion or fission of protons. Fission is produced when nuclei of some heavy elements (like uranium or plutonium) are split into two roughly equal sized ones with the release of energy. Fusion occurs, on the other hand, when two light nuclei undergo nuclear fusion and combine to form a single nucleus, again with the release of energy. It actually uses the same method of energy production as the sun.



The yield of nuclear weapons is usually expressed in terms of the equivalent amount of TNT which would release the same amount of energy. So a single `small' nuclear weapon whose yield is ten kilotons, releases the same amount of energy as ten kilotons, i.e., 10,000 kilograms of TNT.



Another difference is that a nuclear explosion produces large amounts of ``radioactive" material. A large dose of radiation can kill a human instantly. Those who do not die quickly are sometimes doomed to a slower death from radiation poisoning, and since it contaminates large areas of land, they can rendered useless to humans for many years.



The military classifies bombs into tactical weapons and strategic weapons. Tactical bombs are used against military formations and are the type that would be called briefcase nukes by the popular press. These are typically low-yield weapons on the order of 10 kilotons. The strategic weapons are the high-yield devices designed to kill civilian populations in cities and are the ballistic missiles you've read about.



Weapons in which only the fission reaction takes place or pure fission weapons are the simplest to design and build but have theoretical limits to their effective yields due to the energy such reactions are capable of producing. The bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were of this type. Their yield can range from a few tons to a few hundred kilotons.



The efficiency of a fission weapon can be dramatically increased by introducing a small amount of material that can undergo fusion. Such boosted fission weapons in the wake of a fission reaction (which causes temperature and density to increase to very high levels) to serve to trigger a fusion reaction in the additional material, and this, in turn, further boosts the efficiency of the fission reaction which is on-going. The fusion only serves to help the fission process go faster and makes the weapon more `efficient.' Since boosted fission weapons are more efficient than pure fission weapons, they can be made lighter for the same yield. So most of the strategic fission weapons deployed today are boosted fission weapons, and it is these that will likely used by terrorists.



Now that I've described the general idea, Ill try to do the same with such a bombs results.

In order to adequately describe such a scenario, lets set the table by pointing out that the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were on the order of 10 kilotons. You've seen countless photographs of the carnage such bombs are capable of. However, these were airbursts and therefore the spread of destruction was more optimized than is likely from a terrorist. The most likely scenario for them would be to walk a small tactical nuke across the border from Canada (or elsewhere) and then to place the bomb in a specific location such as a subway tunnel. It is safe to simplify this by assuming the bomb to be at or near ground level.



Such a bomb would cause everything within roughly a kilometer to be vaporized. The resulting fireball (temperature of over 1 million degrees) would cause everything flammable within another 10 kilometers to ignite, and the resultant fires would end up being the cause of more problems than the direct effect of the explosion itself. Also, this bomb would produce significant amounts of radiation whos full affect would not be known for years, and whos directional properties are determined by the prevailing winds. If the wind is blowing toward the Atlantic, the number of affected people will be greatly lower than if they were blowing toward the interior of a continent  and in the worst case would cause another few million deathsin the best, just a few hundred thousand additional.



The real problem after such a blast in Manhattan would be one of logistics. The city is dependent on other locations for water, food, electricity and virtually its entire infrastructure is located in other parts of the state. This is good for such resources as water and food, because it makes it more likely that these will remain unpolluted by the radioactive elements produced by the explosion. However, since the means for transport of these things will (in all likelihood) be cutoff by the explosions destructive forceand this problem is amplified by an EMP produced by the explosion burning out most of the electrical grid as well as the resultant firesthe ability to transport these resources will be limited or impossible. Add to this the rubble of buildings and the possible destruction of means of egress/ingress to and from the city and the situation becomes bleak indeed.

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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2005, 06:55:19 AM »
Quote from: grampster
Mercedes,  
     The second.  But time and circumstance tends to modify things, sometimes in ways that are not satisfactory.  Reality seems to intrude on life from time to time.  So reality says we need to not only react but be proactive at times.  Proactivity may not be pretty or desirable, but perhaps necessary.  If the goal is worthy, then action needs to happen.  To sit on the sidelines and snipe with no alternative is not worthy of heed, whatsoever...
Translation: "Things are different now. The old ways are obsolete. Yes, individual liberty worked in a primitive world but now, with all of the technology, liberty is a death sentence - a suicide pact. It is no longer wise for commoners to have free speech, arms, privacy, or other civil liberties. In times like these, we must all realize that we must give up our old, anachronistic ways and adopt the new paradigm of perpetual, pre-emptive war, socialism, surveillance, military aggression, imperialism, massive dept, high taxation and blind obedience. Criticism of the current policies is dangerous and will not be tolerated."


 Blah, blah, blah. No alternative? My alternative is individual liberty. That's the only thing worth securing.

Answer this: Of all the governments on Earth, which one threatens your liberty the most? When you answer that, we'll continue.

thorn

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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2005, 10:02:45 AM »
the one problem with a "briefcase" attack is- one man would have a REAL hard time carrying it out=

BRIEFCASE BOMB WEIGHS 500 POUNDS! so it would hae to be more like a vehicle bomb.
plus subway doesnt make sense, you want it on the surface, not underground.

just wanted to make that clear, the rest of the scenario could happen.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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I'm just wondering (some thoughts-semi rant)
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2005, 10:34:49 AM »
Cheesy Mrs. Toro gets it.

You wouldn't happen to be Edward Teller's daughter, would you? Cheesy


Regards,
Rabbit.
To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
Albert Einstein

grampster

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I'm just wondering (some thoughts-semi rant)
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2005, 10:54:20 AM »
Mercedes,  Perhaps if your translation of my comment was accurate, the rest of what you say might have some validity.  If you'll note, I agreed with you that the 2nd was desirable.  However what one knows is right, when held against reality, causes one to contemplate action.   Perhaps action that is not desirable but worth the result to protect what was worthwhile in the first place.  Now the end should not justify the means, but that does not disallow doing things that one might not do, normally.  None of my comment alluded to giving up anything that is worthy.  I believe our Constitution ought to be looked at as if it were a sacred book.  We don't twist it to serve our needs, we should conform, rather, to its ideals.  If we don't like a thing, then use the formula given to change it.

While I would like to live in your simple world, it seems humans have a propensity to complicate things in spite of what I want.  True individual freedom is anarchy and I don't want to live in that state.  If you do, I don't think you grasp the reality of anarchy; that is unless you like living on seeds and stems in an armed camp.  True freedom is more tied up in the concept of the common good.  Our system of the rule of law rather than men is based on that notion.  So far, there has not seemed to be a better way of doing things.

If your trying to get me to admit our greatest danger lies within our own system, then your paranoia is showing.  While our freedoms are being whittled away, it's because of apathy, laziness and inatention by the sheeple, not the government, per se.  To rant on the internet accomplishes not much.  What are you doing in your own community to make sure our freedoms remain sure?

cordially,
grampster
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

thorn

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I'm just wondering (some thoughts-semi rant)
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2005, 07:51:31 PM »
>>>The Taliban is connected to Iraq because of their religion.  Don't you think that they would ban together for the purpose of defeating a country or countries who are Christian and Jewish?  I believe they will ban together at some point because of their religious beliefs.  I think they want to rid the world of Christians and Jews and Atheist.  This all goes back in the Bible to Abraham who is the father of the Arab nation and also the father of the Jewish nation.  A study of these origins would help you to understand their way of thinking.
<<<<

you know htat got me wondering-
where do you stand on Saudi Arabia then? we fight them eventually as well?

pakistan, indonesia, every muslim country on earth?