Author Topic: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet  (Read 3911 times)

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« on: June 08, 2008, 06:07:32 PM »
I am not going to place the pasted article in a quote box, but it will be contained by horizontal bars.

There are a lot of links in the original article.

Mark Steyn author of "America Alone" and MacLeans, a Canadian magazine, have been hauled before the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal.  Their crime is writing a book, excerpting it in a magazine, and hurting the feelings of militant Islamist sympathizers.




http://ezralevant.com/2008/06/what-could-mark-steyns-punishm.html

What could Mark Steyn's punishment look like? Look at Alberta
By Ezra Levant on June 6, 2008 4:50 PM | Permalink | Comments (125) | Trackback

What could Mark Steyn's punishment look like, if he's convicted by the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal?

It could look like this order, issued just last week by Alberta's human rights commission, against a Christian pastor named Rev. Stephen Boission. (The substantive ruling against Rev. Boissoin can be found here. See paragraph 357 where the right not to be offended "trumps the freedom of speech afforded in the Charter." And see a thoughtful response by the former executive director of the gay rights lobby, EGALE, here.)

loriandreachuk.jpg
The kangaroo court judge in this case is a Tory patronage appointee, a divorce lawyer from Lethbridge named Lori Andreachuk, (pictured at left). That's her expertise: divorce law. Not constitutional law; not freedom of speech or freedom of religion. And it shows.

Last November, she convicted Boissoin. Last week she ordered her "remedy".

It is the most revolting order I have ever seen in Canada. Ever.

I'll excerpt a few lines from her ruling:

In this case, there is no specific individual who can be compensated as there is no direct victim who has come forward...

That's insane already. No-one was hurt. The complainant was an officious intermeddler, a busybody, the town scold, an anti-Christian activist named Darren Lund who had an axe to grind, and Andreachuk gave it to him.

Dr. Lund, although not a direct victim, did expend considerable time and energy and suffered ridicule and harassment as a result of his complaint. The Panel finds therefore that he is entitled to some compensation.

So a busybody with no standing spends time filing complaints -- and gets a tax-free reward for doing so. Oh -- and for his "suffering". Not suffering at the hands of Rev. Boission, but "as a result of his complaint". People in the community ridiculed Lund for filing the complaint -- as they should. And so Andreachuk will get the pastor to pay for that. Why the hell not? Who's going to stop her? Her political patron, Ed Stelmach?

Mr. Boissoin and [his organization] The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc. shall cease publishing in newspapers, by email, on the radio, in public speeches, or on the Internet, in future, disparaging remarks about gays and homosexuals.

There's a lot there, starting with a small but telling point. Darren Lund is a not a medical doctor. He's a professor. But Andreachuk refers to him as Dr. Lund. Stephen Boissoin is a pastor. But Andreachuk calls him "Mr. Boissoin". No "Rev. Boissoin" for her.

But look at the staggering order there. Boissoin can never -- ever -- communicate anything "disparaging" about gays. It's a lifetime ban -- and it applies to every conceivable medium, including his private e-mails.

But nothing "disparaging"? That means nothing critical.

She didn't order him not to communicate anything "illegal" or even anything "hateful". She ordered him to say nothing disparaging. Ever. For the rest of his life.

A divorce lawyer from Lethbridge with a second-rate patronage job just ordered a Canadian pastor to stop communicating to anyone, ever, about gays. Not to stop "hate speech" -- whatever that malleable legal definition is. She just told him to shut up, period.

And then she orders that Rev. Boissoin and his group are:

...prohibited from making disparaging remarks in the future about Dr. Lund or Dr. Lund's witnesses relating to their involvement in this complaint..

Again, not banned from "hate speech", whatever that is today; but banned from disparaging remarks about Lund, an anti-Christian activist, who now is "protected" not just from Rev. Boissoin's alleged anti-gay remarks, but from his political criticism of his own tormentor. Apparently, being a busy-body human rights complainant-of-fortune is a new "protected ground" of hate speech. Become one, and no-one can ever say anything "disparaging" about you again. Ever. Not even in an e-mail.

But Chief Kangaroo Andreachuk is just getting warmed up.

Mr. Boissoin and The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc. provide Dr. Lund with a written apology for the article in the Red Deer Advocate which was the subject of this complaint.

So Ed Stelmach's "conservative" government now believes that if it can't convince a Christian pastor that he's wrong, it will just order him to condemn himself? Other than tribunals in Stalin's Soviet Union and Mao's China, where is this Orwellian "order" considered to be justice?

This is like a Third World jail-house confession -- where accused criminals are forced to sign false statements of guilt. But the thing about jail-house confessions is that they at least pretend to be real. The forcible nature of them is kept secret. Not here: Andreachuk just comes out and says it: you're going to say you're sorry, even if you aren't.

That's a bizarre "remedy". It's meaningless, other than as a thought crime. We don't even "order" murderers to apologize to their victims' families. Because we know that a forced apology is meaningless. But not if your point is to degrade Christian pastors.

Oh, and by the way, Rev. Boissoin and his organization are ordered to:

request their written apology for the contravention of the Act be published in the Red Deer Advocate.

That's the local newspaper. So Rev. Boissoin doesn't just have to issue a false apology. He has to publicly humiliate himself, by publicly declaring his contrition -- contrition he does not feel -- and his abandonment of his deeply-held religious beliefs. A second-rate government bureaucrat has ordered a Canadian pastor to publicly renounce his religious beliefs.

Does that happen anywhere outside of Communist China, or theocratic Saudi Arabia?

OK. Now the cash. Rev. Boissoin and his group:

shall pay to Dr. Lund an award for damages, jointly and severally, in the amount of $5,000.00.

Andreachuk already said Lund suffered no damages. But so what. When you're forcing a man to publicly renounce his conscience, why not stick him with the bill? In Communist China, the family of prisoners who are executed are sent the bill for the bullet that killed them. So while Rev. Boissoin's money is being divvied up, why not make him pay for the hearing, too? A witness against Rev. Boissoin, Janelle Dodd, will get her expenses paid,

up to the maximum amount of $2,000.

So, let's re-cap.

A Christian pastor has been given a lifetime ban against uttering anything "disparaging" about gays. Not against anything "hateful", let alone something legally defined as "hate speech". Just anything negative.

So a pastor cannot give a sermon.

But he must give a false sermon; he is positively ordered to renounce his deeply held religious beliefs, and apologize to his tormentor for having those views.

And then that pastor is ordered to declare to his entire city that he has renounced his religious views, even though he has not.

That's Alberta's human rights commission. That's the group where 15 bureaucrats are busily beavering away against me, because I published some Danish cartoons two years ago.

That's the same "law" under which Maclean's and Mark Steyn are charged.

Fire. Them. All.





To quote Dave Barry, "I am not making this up."

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Standing Wolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,978
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2008, 06:41:39 PM »
Given even 1% of an opportunity, that kind of hatred will become law in the United States, too.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2008, 01:29:23 AM »
Remember....if the gun bans didn't come first, this "thought-police" insanity wouldn't be possible....  police
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2008, 01:49:26 AM »
Ice T was prohibited from visited Canada.

This is not new.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,492
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2008, 01:55:35 AM »
Remember....if the gun bans didn't come first, this "thought-police" insanity wouldn't be possible....  police

Sure it would.

Nobody is interested in standing trial for murdering a politician over a breech of liberties.  If this came to pass in the US, you wouldn't see some glorious revolution - you'd see a bunch of people complain about it on the internet, and day-to-day life would go on.

The basic threat that the second amendment seeks to uphold, that ultimate personal power is given to each and every capable individual - the ultimate safeguard from tyranny; is in my opinion invalid.  The threat of a weapon can only be measured by the opponents willingness to use it, and the US population most assuredly *isn't* willing to use small arms to defend the constitution against the govenment.

If firearms were deemed a collective right tomorrow, only to be exercised by state militias, and private ownership were banned in the near future; you'd see quiet compliance from 99% of the population.  The angry shots fired by that 1% - the true patriots, defending the constitution - would be ripped apart by the media, and turned into fuel for the fire.  Video of shootouts with officers would show that the ends justify the means; that the violence inherent with private arms ownership is being turned against American law enforcement officers.  And your fellow American's would watch the nightly news and eat it up.

This is the country we live in.  Canada is representative of the future, socialist America. Don't ever think that it can't happen here.

[/rant]

mek42

  • New Member
  • Posts: 78
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 02:53:41 AM »
Wow.  This is beyond the pale.  It's one thing for individual A or even group B to sue publisher X under the slander / libel laws if they feel disparaged, but letting busybody Z complain about publisher X maybe, possibly having slandered group B and then getting an award from it is another thing entirely.

I hope there's an appeal.

The site canadianpastor.blogspot.com alleges that the below letter touched off the whole thing.  I don't think he crosses the line into hatred.  He sounds more like some ultra-right person who doesn't grasp the same reality I do is all.  He's not calling for the mob to rise up with pitchforks and torches, just suggesting a change in the pattern of legislation / ranting against the recently passed legislation.

Maybe he crossed the line in other writings, but not this one.  I definitely don't agree with what he wrote, but I see nothing objectionable.  At worst, one could argue that he is right at the line of acceptable, non-hateful speech, but he is still on the correct side of that line.

Quote
Wednesday, September 21, 2005
The Letter that Started It All

The Following is the actual letter written by Rev. Stephen Boissoin who was at the time National Chairman of the Concerned Christian Coalition (now Concerned Christians Canada Inc.) It is this letter that has the Rev. Stephen Boissoin and Concerned Christians Canada Inc., (CCC) appearing before The Alberta Human Rights Commission.

The letter is hard hitting and direct, but is written in love and needed to be said in this time of homosexual activism. What is interesting is that when this letter is read in context is not hateful or untrue like the Chief Commissioner of the Alberta Human Rights Commission says they are.

Homosexual Agenda Wicked

June 17, 2002

The following is not intended for those who are suffering from an unwanted sexual identity crisis. For you, I have understanding, care, compassion and tolerance. I sympathize with you and offer you my love and fellowship. I prayerfully beseech you to seek help, and I assure you that your present enslavement to homosexuality can be remedied. Many outspoken, former homosexuals are free today.

Instead, this is aimed precisely at every individual that in any way supports the homosexual machine that has been mercilessly gaining ground in our society since the 1960s. I cannot pity you any longer and remain inactive. You have caused far too much damage.

My banner has now been raised and war has been declared so as to defend the precious sanctity of our innocent children and youth, that you so eagerly toil, day and night, to consume. With me stand the greatest weapons that you have encountered to date - God and the "Moral Majority." Know this, we will defeat you, then heal the damage that you have caused. Modern society has become dispassionate to the cause of righteousness. Many people are so apathetic and desensitized today that they cannot even accurately define the term "morality."

The masses have dug in and continue to excuse their failure to stand against horrendous atrocities such as the aggressive propagation of homo- and bisexuality. Inexcusable justifications such as, "I'm just not sure where the truth lies," or "If they don't affect me then I don't care what they do," abound from the lips of the quantifiable majority.

Face the facts, it is affecting you. Like it or not, every professing heterosexual is have their future aggressively chopped at the roots.

Edmund Burke's observation that, "All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing," has been confirmed time and time again. From kindergarten class on, our children, your grandchildren are being strategically targeted, psychologically abused and brainwashed by homosexual and pro-homosexual educators.

Our children are being victimized by repugnant and premeditated strategies, aimed at desensitizing and eventually recruiting our young into their camps. Think about it, children as young as five and six years of age are being subjected to psychologically and physiologically damaging pro-homosexual literature and guidance in the public school system; all under the fraudulent guise of equal rights.

Your children are being warped into believing that same-sex families are acceptable; that men kissing men is appropriate.

Your teenagers are being instructed on how to perform so-called safe same gender oral and anal sex and at the same time being told that it is normal, natural and even productive. Will your child be the next victim that tests homosexuality positive?

Come on people, wake up! It's time to stand together and take whatever steps are necessary to reverse the wickedness that our lethargy has authorized to spawn. Where homosexuality flourishes, all manner of wickedness abounds.

Regardless of what you hear, the militant homosexual agenda isn't rooted in protecting homosexuals from "gay bashing." The agenda is clearly about homosexual activists that include, teachers, politicians, lawyers, Supreme Court judges, and God forbid, even so-called ministers, who are all determined to gain complete equality in our nation and even worse, our world.

Don't allow yourself to be deceived any longer. These activists are not morally upright citizens, concerned about the best interests of our society. They are perverse, self-centered and morally deprived individuals who are spreading their psychological disease into every area of our lives. Homosexual rights activists and those that defend them, are just as immoral as the pedophiles, drug dealers and pimps that plague our communities.

The homosexual agenda is not gaining ground because it is morally backed. It is gaining ground simply because you, Mr. and Mrs. Heterosexual, do nothing to stop it. It is only a matter of time before some of these morally bankrupt individuals such as those involved with NAMBLA, the North American Man/Boy Lovers Association, will achieve their goal to have sexual relations with children and assert that it is a matter of free choice and claim that we are intolerant bigots not to accept it.

If you are reading this and think that this is alarmist, then I simply ask you this: how bad do things have to become before you will get involved? It's time to start taking back what the enemy has taken from you. The safety and future of our children is at stake.

Rev Stephen Boissoin

posted by stan at 12:29 PM | 23 comments

Standing Wolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,978
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2008, 05:18:09 AM »
Quote
If you are reading this and think that this is alarmist, then I simply ask you this: how bad do things have to become before you will get involved? It's time to start taking back what the enemy has taken from you. The safety and future of our children is at stake.

How bad do things have to become? A lot worse than taking away freedom of speech. Taking away cable television, now, or beer...
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Sergeant Bob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,861
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2008, 06:38:33 AM »
Remember....if the gun bans didn't come first, this "thought-police" insanity wouldn't be possible....  police

Sure it would.

Nobody is interested in standing trial for murdering a politician over a breech of liberties.  If this came to pass in the US, you wouldn't see some glorious revolution - you'd see a bunch of people complain about it on the internet, and day-to-day life would go on.

The basic threat that the second amendment seeks to uphold, that ultimate personal power is given to each and every capable individual - the ultimate safeguard from tyranny; is in my opinion invalid.  The threat of a weapon can only be measured by the opponents willingness to use it, and the US population most assuredly *isn't* willing to use small arms to defend the constitution against the govenment.

If firearms were deemed a collective right tomorrow, only to be exercised by state militias, and private ownership were banned in the near future; you'd see quiet compliance from 99% of the population.  The angry shots fired by that 1% - the true patriots, defending the constitution - would be ripped apart by the media, and turned into fuel for the fire.  Video of shootouts with officers would show that the ends justify the means; that the violence inherent with private arms ownership is being turned against American law enforcement officers.  And your fellow American's would watch the nightly news and eat it up.

This is the country we live in.  Canada is representative of the future, socialist America. Don't ever think that it can't happen here.

[/rant]

You are sadly and utterly, correct. All the "Cold Dead Hands" and "Molon Labe" talk is mostly just that, talk.
I too am guilty, as I am not willing to kill a police officer, or murder a politician (as much as I sometimes feel I'd like too) and just become fodder for for the gun grabbers on the 24 hour news, which would bombard the country with images of crazy rednecks with "assault weapons", raising the general public into a frightful frenzy, demanding the government "do something".
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 06:50:08 AM »
Remember....if the gun bans didn't come first, this "thought-police" insanity wouldn't be possible....  police

Sure it would.

Nobody is interested in standing trial for murdering a politician over a breech of liberties.  If this came to pass in the US, you wouldn't see some glorious revolution - you'd see a bunch of people complain about it on the internet, and day-to-day life would go on.

The basic threat that the second amendment seeks to uphold, that ultimate personal power is given to each and every capable individual - the ultimate safeguard from tyranny; is in my opinion invalid.  The threat of a weapon can only be measured by the opponents willingness to use it, and the US population most assuredly *isn't* willing to use small arms to defend the constitution against the govenment.

If firearms were deemed a collective right tomorrow, only to be exercised by state militias, and private ownership were banned in the near future; you'd see quiet compliance from 99% of the population.  The angry shots fired by that 1% - the true patriots, defending the constitution - would be ripped apart by the media, and turned into fuel for the fire.  Video of shootouts with officers would show that the ends justify the means; that the violence inherent with private arms ownership is being turned against American law enforcement officers.  And your fellow American's would watch the nightly news and eat it up.

This is the country we live in.  Canada is representative of the future, socialist America. Don't ever think that it can't happen here.

[/rant]

You are sadly and utterly, correct. All the "Cold Dead Hands" and "Molon Labe" talk is mostly just that, talk.
I too am guilty, as I am not willing to kill a police officer, or murder a politician (as much as I sometimes feel I'd like too) and just become fodder for for the gun grabbers on the 24 hour news, which would bombard the country with images of crazy rednecks with "assault weapons", raising the general public into a frightful frenzy, demanding the government "do something".

In many parts of the US, I have to admit you'd be right.....hopefully, enough of the other parts will exist to put up a good fight....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Werewolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,126
  • Lead, Follow or Get the HELL out of the WAY!
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 07:21:56 AM »
Remember....if the gun bans didn't come first, this "thought-police" insanity wouldn't be possible....  police

Sure it would.

Nobody is interested in standing trial for murdering a politician over a breech of liberties.  If this came to pass in the US, you wouldn't see some glorious revolution - you'd see a bunch of people complain about it on the internet, and day-to-day life would go on.

The basic threat that the second amendment seeks to uphold, that ultimate personal power is given to each and every capable individual - the ultimate safeguard from tyranny; is in my opinion invalid.  The threat of a weapon can only be measured by the opponents willingness to use it, and the US population most assuredly *isn't* willing to use small arms to defend the constitution against the govenment.

If firearms were deemed a collective right tomorrow, only to be exercised by state militias, and private ownership were banned in the near future; you'd see quiet compliance from 99% of the population.  The angry shots fired by that 1% - the true patriots, defending the constitution - would be ripped apart by the media, and turned into fuel for the fire.  Video of shootouts with officers would show that the ends justify the means; that the violence inherent with private arms ownership is being turned against American law enforcement officers.  And your fellow American's would watch the nightly news and eat it up.

This is the country we live in.  Canada is representative of the future, socialist America. Don't ever think that it can't happen here.

[/rant]

You are sadly and utterly, correct. All the "Cold Dead Hands" and "Molon Labe" talk is mostly just that, talk.
I too am guilty, as I am not willing to kill a police officer, or murder a politician (as much as I sometimes feel I'd like too) and just become fodder for for the gun grabbers on the 24 hour news, which would bombard the country with images of crazy rednecks with "assault weapons", raising the general public into a frightful frenzy, demanding the government "do something".

So - in your opinion there are no men or women left in the US that value freedom and liberty enough to fight - even at risk to their own lives - to retain it.

Maybe you are right. BUT! If you are then the USA, the last bastion of real freedom on Earth, is dead; it just doesn't know it yet. The great experiment has failed and the world is about to enter a dark age of oppression.

If you are right - then the people deserve what they get.
Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love
truly, Laugh uncontrollably, And never regret anything that made you smile.

Fight Me Online

Sergeant Bob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,861
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2008, 09:15:49 AM »
Quote
So - in your opinion there are no men or women left in the US that value freedom and liberty enough to fight - even at risk to their own lives - to retain it.

Did not say that.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

Werewolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,126
  • Lead, Follow or Get the HELL out of the WAY!
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2008, 11:55:11 AM »
Quote
So - in your opinion there are no men or women left in the US that value freedom and liberty enough to fight - even at risk to their own lives - to retain it.

Did not say that.


Then what exactly did you say or mean because that's exactly what this sounds like:

Quote
You are sadly and utterly, correct. All the "Cold Dead Hands" and "Molon Labe" talk is mostly just that, talk.
Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love
truly, Laugh uncontrollably, And never regret anything that made you smile.

Fight Me Online

Sergeant Bob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,861
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2008, 12:53:07 PM »
'Sigh'  I'm not going to argue over what you think I said. How bout just spelling and grammar?
Just read it again, I'm sure you'll figure it out.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

One of Many

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2008, 12:54:34 PM »
During the war of revolution when the British Colonies of North America fought to become a separate nation, what percentage of the population supported the revolution, and what percentage participated in the fighting? I have always thought that the revolution was carried out by a minority of the people. The victors declared the new rules by which the country would operate as a new nation known as the United States of America, and the majority of the population (those who had no will to become part of the dispute with the King of England) went along with the new rules because they had no choice (unless they also took up arms in order to subjugate themselves to the King all over again).

It took several years before the new government was actually complete and a Constitution and the Federal Government came into being.


xavier fremboe

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 904
  • All-American Meanie
    • The Shop
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2008, 01:59:05 PM »
During the war of revolution when the British Colonies of North America fought to become a separate nation, what percentage of the population supported the revolution, and what percentage participated in the fighting? I have always thought that the revolution was carried out by a minority of the people. The victors declared the new rules by which the country would operate as a new nation known as the United States of America, and the majority of the population (those who had no will to become part of the dispute with the King of England) went along with the new rules because they had no choice (unless they also took up arms in order to subjugate themselves to the King all over again).

It took several years before the new government was actually complete and a Constitution and the Federal Government came into being.
"Colonist support for the revolution is difficult to gauge. However, historians have estimated that approximately 40-45 percent of the colonists actively supported the rebellion while 15-20 percent of the population of the thirteen colonies remained loyal to the British Crown. The remaining 35-45 percent attempted to remain neutral[3]"
From wikipedia, so it's automatically wrong. (Wink), but it gives us a starting point for discussion.  Many British loyalists moved north to Canada so that they could remain subjects of the crown. 

Much of the time spent forming fed.gov was trying to resolve problems that plague us to this day...
If the bandersnatch seems even mildly frumious, best to shun it.  Really. http://www.cctplastics.com

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2008, 03:36:46 PM »
Never underestimate tired old men ....  laugh
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

doc2rn

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 164
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2008, 03:54:51 PM »
^ I'm with tallpine on this one.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,409
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2008, 08:21:16 PM »
During the war of revolution when the British Colonies of North America fought to become a separate nation, what percentage of the population supported the revolution, and what percentage participated in the fighting? I have always thought that the revolution was carried out by a minority of the people. The victors declared the new rules by which the country would operate as a new nation known as the United States of America, and the majority of the population (those who had no will to become part of the dispute with the King of England) went along with the new rules because they had no choice (unless they also took up arms in order to subjugate themselves to the King all over again).

It took several years before the new government was actually complete and a Constitution and the Federal Government came into being.
"Colonist support for the revolution is difficult to gauge. However, historians have estimated that approximately 40-45 percent of the colonists actively supported the rebellion while 15-20 percent of the population of the thirteen colonies remained loyal to the British Crown. The remaining 35-45 percent attempted to remain neutral[3]"


I don't recall any of the estimates I've heard, but numbers are only part of the story.  I think the Revolution depended, partly, on the fact that the Patriots were not simply rebelling against authority.  They already had a group of men they regarded as their legitimate government(s), who had in fact been leaders in their communities and in their colonies for years.  Not just the Continental Congress, but divers leaders at various levels of government, both local and colonial.  I don't know if freedom-loving Americans have that kind of thing going on right now. 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2008, 04:16:37 AM »
People are unwilling to revolt as long as they stand to lose more by doing so.

People who still have their McMansion, 1.5 vehicles, central HVAC, the lights on, and food in the fridge are not going to revolt, period. Because they would stand to lose that.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,742
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 05:10:04 AM »
People in this country have comfortable lives and relatively happy lives.  They may resent some government actions, but it will take some effort to get those comfortable people risk that lifestyle or give it up entirely to rise up in revolution.  I think it will take a bit more than just a few court rulings. 

The other side of that is that the people who would pass screwy laws like that generally can't manage a market economy and would likely micromanage the economy into the toilet anyway.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Canada Flushes Liberty Down the Toilet
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2008, 05:44:29 AM »
Quote from: MechAg94
People in this country have comfortable lives and relatively happy lives.  They may resent some government actions, but it will take some effort to get those comfortable people risk that lifestyle or give it up entirely to rise up in revolution.  I think it will take a bit more than just a few court rulings.

Very true. Mere rulings are ethereal. Confiscations and prosecutions tho......

However, there are, what, 80 million or so gun owners? If even 1/10 of 1% resist.......
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.