Author Topic: The firearm community is so screwed  (Read 15772 times)

Manedwolf

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2008, 12:04:28 PM »

But then, I'm still not sure what "problem" that 922(r) was meant to address, either.

Protectionism.

Not really. BATFE hates US firearms makers, too, and will raid them whenever possible. Look at Cavalry Arms. How can it be protection to hate imported guns and demand that if they're modified, that they must now have US parts made by companies they hate as well?


MicroBalrog

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2008, 01:12:18 PM »

But then, I'm still not sure what "problem" that 922(r) was meant to address, either.

Protectionism.

Not really. BATFE hates US firearms makers, too, and will raid them whenever possible. Look at Cavalry Arms. How can it be protection to hate imported guns and demand that if they're modified, that they must now have US parts made by companies they hate as well?

BATFE may hate US gunmakers, but the legislator not necessarily do so. Remember the NRA helped craft GCA-1968.

The purpose of the provision is to shift business and production to US-based gun manufacturers and US-based factories.
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Gewehr98

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2008, 02:08:28 PM »
Yup.  The "non-sporting barrels" ban dropped a big bombshell on the AK/FAL and other semiauto rifle community when it hit.  My jaw dropped when I got the notice with my FFL flyer.   sad
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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2008, 03:49:45 AM »
1.  No, we are not.  We are buying like mad for the coming storm.

2.  If you are worried, you need to join the NRA and help me fight.

The NRA is part of the problem.
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Manedwolf

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2008, 03:54:30 AM »
1.  No, we are not.  We are buying like mad for the coming storm.

2.  If you are worried, you need to join the NRA and help me fight.

The NRA is part of the problem.

As opposed to what? They're the only effective organization with legal clout and the ability to appear in suits with lawyers.

What else is there? Larry Pratt's paranoid and ineffectual ranting with the wrong facts?

Hugh Damright

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2008, 04:02:37 AM »
Quote
Is anyone starting to note the parallels in history that occured North/South in the 1850's and the Blue/Red states of current times?

I tend to see it all as being the same neverending regional conflict.

Manedwolf

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2008, 04:06:05 AM »
Quote
Is anyone starting to note the parallels in history that occured North/South in the 1850's and the Blue/Red states of current times?

I tend to see it all as being the same neverending regional conflict.

Except it's not regional anymore. There's the left coast, then the more conservative Midwest with the exception of Minnesota and parts of Wisconsin and Illinois, then the conservative Deep South and northern New England separated by a band of statism.

So you have urban centers of CA being hard-left, along with those of Oregon and Washington, while rural areas are more conservative. You have lefties in large parts of Colorado, while others are still conservative. Most of the Midwest is conservative, though Chicago rules the rest of Illinois with an iron left fist, Wisconsin has the mess of Madison, Michigan has the failure called Detroit, and Minnesota seems to have mostly fallen to the ultra-PC doormats. On the east coast, the more conservative states of the Deep South are separated from northern New England, quite similar, by the statist band of New York, Connecticut, New Jersey and Massachusetts.

It's gotten more confusing.

MicroBalrog

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2008, 04:45:45 AM »


As opposed to what? They're the only effective organization with legal clout and the ability to appear in suits with lawyers.


[/quote]

They aren't the ones behind Heller, are they?
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Ben

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2008, 04:48:41 AM »
If anyone wants to point to a more effective 800lb gorilla in the room (or even a 750lb one), I'll re-evaluate my support of the NRA. Otherwise I don't see anyone else committing the kinds of resources they do for a measly $35/yr.
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oldfart

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2008, 08:10:26 AM »
Yeah, the NRA is an 800 lb gorilla but it would be nice if they'd start acting like a pissed-off gorilla instead of a tranquilized one.

They helped put together NFA-34, GCA-68, and this most recent abortion called the NICS Improvement Act.  Each time they told us that it was the best deal we could have gotten and we should be glad we still get to keep any guns at all.

I bought all that too... until I realized they were trying to scuttle what has come to be known as D.C. vs. Heller.  It took me a long time to understand that the NRA needs gun control to justify the bloated salaries of its officers and staff.  If the only reason the NRA had for existing was to promote gun safety and marksmanship their ranks - and income - would shrink dramatically.  I was finally convinced of this when I called their ILA office to complain about their colaborration with Schumer and McCarthy on the NICS Improvement Act.  No matter what I said to the person on the other end of the conversation, he simply replied that I'd feel differently once I was properly educated.

Folks, I paid the NRA to REPRESENT me, not educate me!  I spent more years than I like to remember in entirely too many schools to get a well-rounded education and I don't believe I need any more.  If the rest of you don't mind letting them pee on your leg while telling you it's raining then you go ahead but it ain't for me.

Manedwolf

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2008, 08:27:05 AM »
They helped put together NFA-34, GCA-68, and this most recent abortion called the NICS Improvement Act.  Each time they told us that it was the best deal we could have gotten and we should be glad we still get to keep any guns at all.

How has the NCIS improvement act affected you?

Have you ever been judged mentally incompetent by a court? No?

Then it doesn't.

xavier fremboe

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2008, 09:34:39 AM »
When you sign up to be Obamaton, this is on the page asking you to donate:
Quote
Barack Obama's presidential campaign is funded entirely by grassroots supporters like you. Senator Obama does not accept money from special interest groups and Washington lobbyists. As a result:

    * Barack Obama owes nothing to the Health Insurance Industry
    * Barack Obama owes nothing to the Oil Industry
    * Barack Obama owes nothing to the Weapons Industry

Yet the fact check section features quote after quote of him going out of his way to make you feel secure about RKBA.
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Manedwolf

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2008, 09:37:37 AM »
When you sign up to be Obamaton, this is on the page asking you to donate:
Quote
Barack Obama's presidential campaign is funded entirely by grassroots supporters like you. Senator Obama does not accept money from special interest groups and Washington lobbyists. As a result:

    * Barack Obama owes nothing to the Health Insurance Industry
    * Barack Obama owes nothing to the Oil Industry
    * Barack Obama owes nothing to the Weapons Industry

Yet the fact check section features quote after quote of him going out of his way to make you feel secure about RKBA.

No, he's just beholden to Daley's thugs and crooked real estate investors.

seeker_two

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2008, 09:44:38 AM »
If anyone wants to point to a more effective 800lb gorilla in the room (or even a 750lb one), I'll re-evaluate my support of the NRA. Otherwise I don't see anyone else committing the kinds of resources they do for a measly $35/yr.

They've been good at working out compromises with the anti-rights crowd where law-abiding gun owners give up something and the anti's give up nothing.

An 800-lb bear can be scary....until you see it backing away from a 50-lb badger with an uncompromising attitude. And an 800-lb gorilla gets nervous quick when a few hornets get into the cage.....

Right now, we need more badgers & bees....  cool
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MechAg94

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2008, 10:24:39 AM »
I keep wanting to say that there is no way Obama gets elected, but then I hear about something else that McCain said and I just don't know.
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oldfart

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2008, 01:49:53 PM »
"How has the NCIS improvement act affected you?"

The NICS should not exist!  It wouldn't exist either, if the NRA hadn't compromised.  Any "improvement" short of complete repeal, is polishing a turd.  Why should I - or anyone else - have to prove their innocence before being allowed to exercise a right?  Is a background check required before posting on this or any other board?  Does the FBI have to clear you before you walk into your Church?

I know, not yet...  but the 800 lb gorilla might still be able to fix that for us too.

Manedwolf

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2008, 05:15:09 PM »
"How has the NCIS improvement act affected you?"

The NICS should not exist!  It wouldn't exist either, if the NRA hadn't compromised.  Any "improvement" short of complete repeal, is polishing a turd.  Why should I - or anyone else - have to prove their innocence before being allowed to exercise a right? 

I'd put up the picture of the VT shooter posing with his insane rage-filled face, but I'd rather what they looked like be forgotten.

I have no problem with the criminally insane being denied firearms. It makes me less likely I'll have to use my own in self defense or to stop a rampage.

oldfart

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2008, 08:13:40 PM »
"It makes me less likely I'll have to use my own in self defense or to stop a rampage."

At some point in life we all must take responsibility for carrying out some sort of distasteful task such as taking out the trash.  We cannot spend our entire lives letting others do the dirty work while we enjoy the fruits of their labors.  Freedom isn't free now nor has it ever been.  Had the VT shooter been less certain of success it isn't likely he'd have even started his rampage.  Personally, I'd rather that everyone be armed rather than give a faceless, unaccountable government agency the power to determine who can or cannot defend themselves.  The fact that a "law" has been passed to empower that agency doesn't make it any more palatable to me.  We all know of "laws" that are neither just nor constitutional but which are enforced anyway.

Manedwolf

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2008, 08:21:16 PM »
Opposing NICS will not win you any points with the general population, even most gun owners.

Pick your battles.

MechAg94

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2008, 04:54:29 AM »
"How has the NCIS improvement act affected you?"

The NICS should not exist!  It wouldn't exist either, if the NRA hadn't compromised.  Any "improvement" short of complete repeal, is polishing a turd.  Why should I - or anyone else - have to prove their innocence before being allowed to exercise a right?  Is a background check required before posting on this or any other board?  Does the FBI have to clear you before you walk into your Church?

I know, not yet...  but the 800 lb gorilla might still be able to fix that for us too.
At that time in the early 90's there was a LOT of momentum and pressure for the anti-gun side.  I feel we did okay in the end getting NICS and a temporary AWB that mostly expired.  It gave the NRA and others a lot of ammunition later to show everyone that crime did not change significantly and those laws had little or no effect on crime.  It also forced the anti-gun crowd to show their hand when they were caught in two-faced lies saying these laws were all they needed then later saying it was just a beginning.  It may not have been popular with gun owners or even right, but I feel those laws helped the NRA and our gun rights (or legal recognition of those rights) in the long run.  Just my opinion. 

If anything, the AWB sparked the market for AR15's and other "evil black rifles". 
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oldfart

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2008, 09:25:25 AM »
Oh, I know I can't argue conclusively that the NICS is all bad but blowing up the good out of proportion to the bad isn't such a good idea either.  That could lead to telling our grandkids that Hitler was really a nice guy because he managed to do a few good things.  The NICS is a bad thing in spite of the few victories it might enjoy.  I don't think anyone will tell you that filling out a 4473 and paying for the honor of waiting to get your clearance to buy a gun is something they've always wanted to do.  Those of my age can remember going into a hardware store, buying a Model 99 Savage and the only paperwork entailed was in handing over the money!  (I should never have sold that rifle!)

I know the NICS is here to stay.  Not because it's such a wonderful program but becuase we (that's me and you and the guy down the street) don't have the 'nads to fight it the way it needs to be fought.  Instead, we rationalize about the kids in school (a government school?), our 401k (in U.S. dollars - shrinking faster than than a cheap sweater in a hot dryer) and all of our responsibilities to our families, our neighbors, our communities, our towns and cities, our states and of course - the good ol' Yew Ess of Aye, few of whom seem to have any responsibility to us other than keeping track of us well enough to make it easy to extract their exorbitant taxes.

For those of you that think the program does enough good to warrant its continuance, let's look at some numbers (pulled strictly out of my nether regions but probably close enough to make the point.)

Let's suppose the NICS processes a million transfers on a weekend prior to Father's Day.  Almost all of them go through with nary a hitch.  Some are delayed and a very few are denied.  Those that were delayed come through later and even some of those denied are appealed and subsequently approved. 

So let's pull another number out of that dark hole and say that 5000 are ultimately denied.  That's 5000/1000000 or .005 of the total.  That may be good enough for government but I doubt a ballplayer could get a major league contract with such a batting average.  But government agencies can get millions of taxpayers dollars with that kind of record because too many of us want to feel safe and to attain that feeling we're willing - nay, eager to give up our freedom - in small portions, of course - for the warm, fuzzy carress of a gloved iron fist.

As I said before:  the NICS is here to stay but don't tell me what a great thing it is.  I know better and so does anybody whose horizon isn't delineated by the cheeks of their butt!

MicroBalrog

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2008, 07:49:23 PM »
They helped put together NFA-34, GCA-68, and this most recent abortion called the NICS Improvement Act.  Each time they told us that it was the best deal we could have gotten and we should be glad we still get to keep any guns at all.

How has the NCIS improvement act affected you?

Have you ever been judged mentally incompetent by a court? No?

Then it doesn't.

Yes, there are no people outside me.
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gunsmith

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2008, 07:12:47 AM »
EH, there is some ex nam vet somewhere who can't own a gun because he was depressed in 1969...I do not know him but am sure he exist.

JM is trying really hard to lose, at first I thought "no way does BO win"
but everyday I get more and more disgusted with JM.

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charby

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Re: The firearm community is so screwed
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2008, 07:18:55 AM »
EH, there is some ex nam vet somewhere who can't own a gun because he was depressed in 1969...I do not know him but am sure he exist.

JM is trying really hard to lose, at first I thought "no way does BO win"
but everyday I get more and more disgusted with JM.

God Help Us!

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