Brady bunch OUT SEnator McCain

[Manedwolf]

If McCain wins, we will never have another conservative candidate.  Ever.  We will have shown the GOP that being a liberal is the new direction of the nation for everyone.  And they will take that message to hear and run More McCains from now on.  Yes if Obama wins it will be hell on earth.  For 4 years.  But in those 4 years, maybe, just maybe, the GOP will learn that becoming Dimocrats will not fly with us.  They just might learn that by running as a liberal in the GOP, it's a one way ticket to last place.  And that is a good lesson to teach the Republican Party. 

I'm trying to think beyond this next 4 years.  I don't want to show the entire political spectrum of the US that its OK to run a liberal and a more liberal as the 2 candidates.

What part of "gun registration is irreversible, once they have the record, they have the record" do you not understand?

And 'closing the gun show loophole' IS gun registration.

No, it is NOT. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The "loophole" thing is asinine, but a minor nuisance. It affects a tiny portion of people, private sellers who sell at shows. That's all.

There is no central Canadian-style database of who has what. Obama and the Dem congress would likely shove through a 1986-style registration for ALL semiautomatic firearms you currently own. ALL of them. If you don't register them in a certain period of time, it's ten years in federal prison for each one, just like unregistered MGs.

That would mean that people would have to register and likely have inspected their ENTIRE GUN COLLECTION. To be confiscated as certain models were deemed too scary. Oops, someone used an AK derivative in a mall shooting. Everyone who owns those gets a letter, then a visit if they don't bring them in to be destroyed.

Oh, yes, and once they impose a, say, $100 per gun tax on each one per year, probably with an additional "armory tax" for people who have over half a dozen, that wipes out the collectors. People here have 200+ guns and could never afford the taxes. They'd be finished. Illinois has already proposed this, a per-gun tax per year. Where Obama is FROM. Disarmament through irreversible attrition.

And, of course, there'd likely be public notice of anyone who had an "armory", available for neighbors to see like sex-offender registries. For the children, of course.

THAT is why Obama is so dangerous. He would go that far in an eyeblink. McCain would not.

[MicroBalrog]

No, it is NOT. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The "loophole" thing is asinine, but a minor nuisance.

Once they  start tracking every individual gun purchase, why should they not simply keep the purchase records rather than destroyig them?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

no

[Manedwolf]

No, it is NOT. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The "loophole" thing is asinine, but a minor nuisance.

Once they  start tracking every individual gun purchase, why should they not simply keep the purchase records rather than destroyig them?

Because by current federal law, they can't. The transaction records are destroyed, the dealer keeps the 4473. This doesn't even touch face-to-face private sales where legal, as in my state. Only gun show private dealers. It's just stupid, but it's just a nuisance.

I don't think McCain would push to change federal law regarding destroying transaction records , and risk losing ALL party support. Obama, however, would. Because HIS people WANT that.

You're dealing in McCain farfetched hypotheticals. I'm talking of Obama "would happen nearly immediately without question".

[De Selby]

Wait a second here-

How hard will it be to change the law so that records of transactions are kept, once all transactions are subject to the FFL transfer rules?

Dealers having records that cannot be destroyed is a form of registration already, since the BATF can access those records at any time.

If the anti-gunners want a very pointed bill allowing the ATF to not destroy 4473's, they will get it from McCain or Obama, if it follows a "gunshow loophole" type law.

[Manedwolf]

Wait a second here-

How hard will it be to change the law so that records of transactions are kept, once all transactions are subject to the FFL transfer rules?

Dealers having records that cannot be destroyed is a form of registration already, since the BATF can access those records at any time.

If the anti-gunners want a very pointed bill allowing the ATF to not destroy 4473's, they will get it from McCain or Obama, if it follows a "gunshow loophole" type law.

One, the "loophole" does NOT APPLY TO PRIVATE SELLERS OUTSIDE SHOWS.

Two, you're just either not understanding or not listening. I think one of the FFLs here could better explain it to you.

[De Selby]

One, the "loophole" does NOT APPLY TO PRIVATE SELLERS OUTSIDE SHOWS

I don't think it's a stretch to believe that a McCain backed bill would in fact apply to all private sales.

Two, you're just either not understanding or not listening. I think one of the FFLs here could better explain it to you.

It is true that I'm not listening, because there isn't any audio posted on this thread.  You do not seem to understand that FFL's keeping a record just makes them a custodian for the ATF-the registration doesn't have to be central in order fo the information to exist.  All that means is that the ATF can't look up a gun by serial number instantly; they have to go to the dealer who sold the gun (something they have a record of) and grab his records to see who he sold the gun to (something the FFL has a record of.)  When the government can identify by name the owner of every gun using the gun's serial number, that is registration. 

Your entire argument here hinges on your assumption that McCain would not a) Push to make private transactions outside gun shows subject to FFL rules and b) push to allow the ATF to keep records of transactions.
I don't think either of those assumptions is warranted, and certainly none is warranted based on McCain's history.

[gunsmith]

I recall J.M saying private party transfers would be subject to background checks, but that they should be instant.
That means we'll get a 3 day waiting period...if we're lucky.
But J.M wants to lose & I think he will so we had better prepare for the worse!

[Manedwolf]

One, the "loophole" does NOT APPLY TO PRIVATE SELLERS OUTSIDE SHOWS

I don't think it's a stretch to believe that a McCain backed bill would in fact apply to all private sales.

Two, you're just either not understanding or not listening. I think one of the FFLs here could better explain it to you.

It is true that I'm not listening, because there isn't any audio posted on this thread.  You do not seem to understand that FFL's keeping a record just makes them a custodian for the ATF-the registration doesn't have to be central in order fo the information to exist.  All that means is that the ATF can't look up a gun by serial number instantly; they have to go to the dealer who sold the gun (something they have a record of) and grab his records to see who he sold the gun to (something the FFL has a record of.)  When the government can identify by name the owner of every gun using the gun's serial number, that is registration. 

Your entire argument here hinges on your assumption that McCain would not a) Push to make private transactions outside gun shows subject to FFL rules and b) push to allow the ATF to keep records of transactions.
I don't think either of those assumptions is warranted, and certainly none is warranted based on McCain's history.

So what the hell are you going to do? Vote for Obama?

[De Selby]

One, the "loophole" does NOT APPLY TO PRIVATE SELLERS OUTSIDE SHOWS

I don't think it's a stretch to believe that a McCain backed bill would in fact apply to all private sales.

Two, you're just either not understanding or not listening. I think one of the FFLs here could better explain it to you.

It is true that I'm not listening, because there isn't any audio posted on this thread.  You do not seem to understand that FFL's keeping a record just makes them a custodian for the ATF-the registration doesn't have to be central in order fo the information to exist.  All that means is that the ATF can't look up a gun by serial number instantly; they have to go to the dealer who sold the gun (something they have a record of) and grab his records to see who he sold the gun to (something the FFL has a record of.)  When the government can identify by name the owner of every gun using the gun's serial number, that is registration. 

Your entire argument here hinges on your assumption that McCain would not a) Push to make private transactions outside gun shows subject to FFL rules and b) push to allow the ATF to keep records of transactions.
I don't think either of those assumptions is warranted, and certainly none is warranted based on McCain's history.

So what the hell are you going to do? Vote for Obama?

I'm undecided-lesser of two evils versus principled vote issues.

But certainly, whatever I do, I will not be pretending that McCain actually is good for gun owners, because he isn't.

It seems to me that your whole interest in denying that McCain supports gun registration is simply to increase his political advantage, based on your assumption that he may not be as bad as Obama on guns (even though McCain's track record is very similar to Obama's on the issue.) 

It's best to assert or deny these things based on the facts, and not based on who you want to win the election, imho.

[Manedwolf]

Okay. Let's put this in picture format, since you're not understanding.

McCain, as regards gun owners:



OBAMA, as regards gun owners:



OBAMA: NO CONCEALED CARRY, NO SEMIAUTOMATICS AT ALL
McCain is "maybe" one loophole...How is that even close?!!!

[Ieyasu]

For you folks who are on the fence, please remember that Obama opposed the nominations of Alito and Roberts. McCain voted for them.

A favorable Heller decision would not have been possible had Kerry or Gore been president.

[The Annoyed Man]

It's clear that you're all willing to compromise to whatever level is required, as long as your guy has an 'R' after his name.   Jefferson was right-'Ultimately, people get the government they deserve'.

[Ieyasu]

Oh yeah,  Heller will be quite a "compromise."

It ain't compromise, it's small, incremental gains. We'll never make progress by demanding all or nothing.

Edited to add:

By the way, obtaining and maintaining a mildly pro-2A Supreme Court is no small feat.

[De Selby]

It's clear that you're all willing to compromise to whatever level is required, as long as your guy has an 'R' after his name.   Jefferson was right-'Ultimately, people get the government they deserve'.

Yep.

The thing is, on this issue, the truth is that McCain and Obama aren't really different at all.  I think it does damage to the gun rights movement (and to most issues) when we try to fudge the candidates' actual views on specific issues because we don't like the candidate on some other issue or overall. 

[Gewehr98]

It's clear that you're all willing to compromise to whatever level is required, as long as your guy has an 'R' after his name.   Jefferson was right-'Ultimately, people get the government they deserve'.

Paddy, you never fail to disappoint here at APS.

McCain isn't the best candidate out there for gun owners, but he's a hell of a lot better than Obama, who has gone on record as being exceptionally anti-gun.

We can use the 4 years of McCain to at least stall and buy time to further our gun rights battle, vs. enduring the things Obama has in store for us. 

As a Kalifornian, you should know what evils the pants-wetting liberals have in store for gun owners.  I had to leave there just prior to January 2000, so that the majority of my 200+ toys wouldn't be made illegal by Lockyer's SB-23.  Damned military-pattern semiautos, they're the Devil's Spawn, don't you know... 

[taurusowner]

Mandewolf, with the super majority the Dims will probably have(veto override) do you really think it even matter who the president is?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you need to do the math about what it takes to overide a veto again.  name the last ten vetos overidden without using google

[Manedwolf]

Mandewolf, with the super majority the Dims will probably have(veto override) do you really think it even matter who the president is?

Do the math, and as Cassandra just said, look up the last vetos.

Also, WHO makes the speeches for the media? Who makes the State of the Union? Who can push to cheering crowds?

[Tallpine]

you need to do the math about what it takes to overide a veto again.  name the last ten vetos overidden without using google

They use google to overide vetos now  

 

[gunsmith]

& Heller has not been announced yet, after the decision to give the terrorist hordes at gitmo the keys to the kingdom, I don't know if we're gonna get a good decision.

[MicroBalrog]

It ain't compromise, it's small, incremental gains. We'll never make progress by demanding all or nothing.

Someone please tell that to MLK.

[MicroBalrog]

So what the hell are you going to do? Vote for Obama?

Better to lose one election than to lose the party forever.

[Manedwolf]

So what the hell are you going to do? Vote for Obama?

Better to lose one election than to lose the party forever.

This is the insanity of the Ronulans that I just can't grasp.

They'd rather commit a kamikaze attack than regroup and attack in a more effective fashion.

They just, somehow, can't fathom that while McCain is off track, Obama would pull UP the track, plant flowers, and declare a wildlife refuge so the tracks can't ever be rebuilt.

There is no going back from what Obama and a dem congress would do. And the Ronulans would rather choose total destruction than just put up with a halfassed semi-Republican who can still be told "Don't do that." Obama doesn't CARE. He has FOLLOWERS.

[De Selby]

There is no going back from what Obama and a dem congress would do. And the Ronulans would rather choose total destruction than just put up with a halfassed semi-Republican who can still be told "Don't do that." Obama doesn't CARE. He has FOLLOWERS.

This is simply untrue-a properly organized interest group like the NRA is more than capable of making gun control a loser of an issue for them. 

This focus on parties and candidates is not good for people who are interested in a specific issue; you need to throw your energy and time into beefing up the gun rights lobby, so that it can work on all candidates. 

Pretending that McCain is an improvement over Obama when his track record shows otherwise is going to do nothing more than turn gun owners into yet another ignored and now powerless group within the republican party, exactly the same way that many Christian groups and real conservative groups have been marginalized.  They still vote republican on the Manedwolf theory, but their agendas are pretty much ignored by the party power-brokers.

Edit to add: The short version-if your votes aren't seriously in play, and aren't lined up clearly behind the gun rights issue, gun rights loses because one party will lose nothing by damaging gun rights, while the other loses no votes in failing to protect them.