The Ethanol in Gasoline Scam...

[Werewolf]

For the longest time I couldn't figure out why I got 20mpg from some gas stations and 23mpg from others.

Turns out the issue is ethanol. How do I know - the OK legislature made it a requirement for gas stations to display the amount of ethanol in gasoline and gas stations started posting the info about a month ago.

Turns out that with ethanol (10% around here) I get 20 mpg going to and from work. With 100% gas I get 23 mpg.

So I ran the numbers to see if that actually saved gasoline.

Turns out it doesn't.

Round trip to my work is 30 miles. Assume 220 days a year I drive to work. That's 6600 miles. At 20mpg it takes 330 gallons of gasahol. Since it's 10% ethanol that works out to 297 gallons of gasoline.

At 23 mpg using 100% gasoline only 287 gallons of gasoline are used.

So in my case at least I use 10 more gallons of gas a year by having to use gasahol. Not much you say - multiply that by the hundreds of millions of cars that are in the USA most of which drive way more than the 8000 miles or so I put on mine a year.

So - since I have a 15.5 gallon tank not only am I robbed of an extra 45 miles per tank of gas I have to pay on average 10 cents more a gallon for the gasahol stuff than 100% gasoline and suffer extra engine wear caused by the ethanol. Add to that that most of the ethanol is made from corn and that that has caused food prices to go up and it all boils down to a huge ripoff of the driving public.

The only way this makes sense to me is some stupid politician has his hand in someone's pocket or the green weenies just can't do simple math. Probably both.

Oh and 100% is getting harder and harder to find around here... 

[41magsnub]

In the winter months here all the stations are required to add ethanol and I have seen what it does to my mileage, similar to your experiences.  The idea is it reduces smog but I'm not sure how that works.  There is a station just outside of town that is not subject to the requirement but I did the math and if I went out of my way to go there my overall gas expense would rise slightly so I just deal with it.

[zahc]

I don't even know where to buy 100% gasoline around here. I track my mileage and have definitely noticed a mileage difference since i moved here.

[Boomhauer]

Hell, I know it. The damn ethanol...

Okay, I, and a lot of other pilots, have STCs (supplemental type certificates) that allow us to run automotive fuel in our aircraft. These were issued long before ethanol came on the scene. Here's the rub...if the fuel has ethanol in it, you can't use it. Fuel line icing and it eats rubber stuff, especially fuel bladders like in the older Cessnas and other aircraft.

It's a pain in the ass to find non-ethanol blended fuel...and many can't get it, so the STC that you have is absolutly worthless.

Plus, it drops the MPG of our vehicles, and god knows what it is doing to the components, even though it is said to be harmless.

The only way this makes sense to me is some stupid politician has his hand in someone's pocket or the green weenies just can't do simple math. Probably both.

You got it. It pisses me off so much...

[Standing Wolf]

The only way this makes sense to me is some stupid politician has his hand in someone's pocket or the green weenies just can't do simple math. Probably both.

They can do simple arithmetic; they're just convinced you and I can't.

[never_retreat]

The more the ethanol blend the lower the millage. Great idea.
Lets lower the sulfur content in the diesel too.. yep the drops the millage also.

I it just me or is there a pattern here.

[HankB]

The only way this makes sense to me is some stupid politician has his hand in someone's pocket or the green weenies just can't do simple math. Probably both.

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!

Years ago, Minnesota started requiring ethanol-diluted gasoline in the Twin Cities area as winter came on - everyone I spoke to saw at least a 10% drop in fuel economy. (Proponents said the penalty was 3%. They lied.)

Why was this done? Supposedly to keep pollution down.

Ha!

A major agribusiness and producer of fuel ethanol - Archer-Daniels Midland - made some hefty campaign contributions to Minnesota legislators who later pushed the ethanol mandate.

Just like they were paid to do. 

[mtnbkr]

I've noticed a 10% drop, give or take, in my vehicles since E10 became commonplace.

Chris

[Gewehr98]

I'm just miffed that there's 15% gasoline in my E-85.  I'd prefer 100% ETOH, but that doesn't work real well in cold winter weather. 

I haven't noticed that big a drop in my mileage, but I drive a flex-fuel truck designed to run on the stuff, regardless.

Bump up the compression to take advantage of the higher ETOH octane, and things change dramatically.  I'm looking into converting my high-compression Shovelhead over to the 105 octane fuel, too.

Add to that that most of the ethanol is made from corn and that that has caused food prices to go up and it all boils down to a huge ripoff of the driving public.

Over-used urban myth.  Food prices are going up because grocery trucks run on diesel, which is heading towards $5.00/gallon.  Duh.  How much field corn are you eating, btw?  Hint - the field corn my family sells to the local distillery comes back to us after they remove the starch. We keep the silage and distiller's dry grains, and our black angus beef herd aren't starving, last I heard. It's a protein shortage that's causing hunger problems worldwide, not a starch shortage.  As we switch over ethanol production to other feedstocks like switchgrass and kudzu, I want to see how much weeping and gnashing of teeth the uninformed make.  Save the kudzu for gawd's sake, some people are starving!  The food vs. fuel argument is contrived, and people are buying it as gospel truth, because they're gullible and don't want to learn what's really happening out there.  See link below for data points.

Ripoff?  Yeah, sure.  I paid $2.99/gallon to fill up on E-85 last night.  Gasoline was $3.99/gallon.  That's an honest $1.00/gallon difference, so even if I got a worst-case 15% difference in mileage, I still make out very much ahead on miles/dollar.  Ethanol is the devil's creation.   

http://www.e85fuel.com/news/2008/050908/ncga_foodandfuel_paper.pdf

 

[mtnbkr]

E85 kinda makes sense because at least you'd be using it in vehicles tailored for it.  E10 makes no sense because it reduces effiency to the point it causes you to use more gas than you would without it.

I'll keep a flexfuel vehicle in mind when I buy our next vehicle in 2-4 years.  Maybe by then there'll be E85 stations around here, but for now, they are conspicously absent. 

Chris

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I can drive from Lafayette to Saint Louis on a full tank of gas.  I cannot drive from Saint Louis to Lafayette on a full tank, though.  Wanna guess which state requires 10% diluted gas and which one doesn't?  Of course, the diluted gas doesn't cost any less...

[Firethorn]

E85 kinda makes sense because at least you'd be using it in vehicles tailored for it.  E10 makes no sense because it reduces effiency to the point it causes you to use more gas than you would without it.

Given the availability of E10, I wish more car manufacturers optimized their engines for it today.  You shouldn't have any problems getting any lost mileage back with a slightly higher compression engine or some more agressive timing.

Then again, I'm hoping that my next vehicle will be either E85 optimized or capable of running B100.  I'm leaning towards B100 personally.  They just need to fix the emission controls that sap mileage right now.  The biggest reason that modern diesels don't get as good mileage as the older ones is that low sulfer diesel allowed additional emission control equipment; feds/california promptly required it, but they cost power.

[Nitrogen]

The reason we are adding Ethanol to gasoline is because it contains oxygen, which helps cut down on the amount of Carbon Monoxide in the atmosphere.  it also helps the fuel burn more completely.

We used to use Methyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether (MTBE) which did a better job, but seeped into groundwater.  MTBE is quite toxic, while Ethanol is much less so, and degrades much more safely.

Strangely enough, using an oxygenate also increases "greenhouse" gasses, but increases air quality.

[zahc]

Fuel line icing and it eats rubber stuff, especially fuel bladders like in the older Cessnas and other aircraft.

Why do ppl say alcohol causes problems with icing in the winter? I thought those 'fuel line antifreeze' additives were simply alchohol themselves.

[Boomhauer]

It's beyond my ability to explain it, but it is a very real possibility.

[Firethorn]

It's beyond my ability to explain it, but it is a very real possibility.

Yeah, HEAT products are either ethanol or methanol, in the vast majority.

Maybe it has to do with the low pressures at high altitudes?

[The Annoyed Man]

How much field corn are you eating, btw?

  You don't need to 'eat field corn' to be negatively affected by increased corn prices.  Some of the consumer items derived from corn:

http://www.iowacorn.org/cornuse/cornuse_6.html

[Marvin Dao]

The reason we are adding Ethanol to gasoline is because it contains oxygen, which helps cut down on the amount of Carbon Monoxide in the atmosphere.  it also helps the fuel burn more completely.

We used to use Methyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether (MTBE) which did a better job, but seeped into groundwater.  MTBE is quite toxic, while Ethanol is much less so, and degrades much more safely.

Strangely enough, using an oxygenate also increases "greenhouse" gasses, but increases air quality.

With the market domination of fuel injected cars with adaptive learn ECUs, adding oxygenates to gasoline only negligibly improves combustion. See: Here. Emissions improvements that they got were ~ 1-10%, but given the loss in mileage due to the addition of the oxygenate, I'm not sure they even come out ahead when it comes to pollution/mile. As noted in the link, there's some argument on whether or not ethanol actually improves emissions as it raises NOx and HC emissions while lowers the evaporation point of gasoline. Regardless of ethanol's effect though, oxygenates are no longer necessary for pollution control with modern cars and the part of the Clean Air Act that mandated it should have been phased out.

[Gewehr98]

Glad to see you're not paying attention again, Paddy.

Read the Adobe .pdf link I attached above.  A box of corn flakes contains a whopping 10 ounces of corn. 

The HFCS, other sweeteners, starch, cereals and booze equate to just shy of 11% of corn use.

We export 17%, feed 47% to animals, use 17% for ethanol, and the remaining 8% is considered "surplus".

It ain't nearly the problem Big Oil and the media would have you believe. 

Not only that, but there's no Smug Pollution from Flex-Fuel ethanol burners like myself, either.

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't think we're in any disagreement re: ethanol.  It's a piss poor energy source.

[lupinus]

Ethanol is not a good fuel for your average vehicle.  The average gasoline engine maxes out at 15%, beyond that it runs very poorly.  It also lacks the lubricating quality of gasoline so you get increased upper engine wear.  Even flex fuel vehicles that can run on E85 can only go up to 85% and get bad gas mileage.

Why does ethanol get worse gas mileage?  It's simple.  All an internal combustion engine does is access the stored energy of a fuel by converting it to heat.  It burns, releases energy/expands, pushes the piston down, you go.  Gasoline stores more energy then alcohol and burns hotter.  This means it takes less to push the piston down.  This is probably over simplified but thats about it.  Alcohol burns cooler so you need more to run your engine resulting in worse mileage.

Everyplace around here posts either 10% or up to 10%.  I have noticed the place posting up to 10% seems to give me a bit better mileage.

[roo_ster]

Glad to see you're not paying attention again, Paddy.

Read the Adobe .pdf link I attached above.  A box of corn flakes contains a whopping 10 ounces of corn. 

The HFCS, other sweeteners, starch, cereals and booze equate to just shy of 11% of corn use.

We export 17%, feed 47% to animals, use 17% for ethanol, and the remaining 8% is considered "surplus".

It ain't nearly the problem Big Oil and the media would have you believe. 

Not only that, but there's no Smug Pollution from Flex-Fuel ethanol burners like myself, either.

In 2007, 27% of the corn crop in the USA was processed into ethanol.  Ethanol displaced 1% of the total amount of gasoline used by the USA in 2007.

Without the mandated use of ethanol in gasoline and the $0.51/gal subsidy for ethanol used in fuel, that 27% would be closer to 2.7% of the crop.

[Nitrogen]

With the market domination of fuel injected cars with adaptive learn ECUs, adding oxygenates to gasoline only negligibly improves combustion. See: Here. Emissions improvements that they got were ~ 1-10%, but given the loss in mileage due to the addition of the oxygenate, I'm not sure they even come out ahead when it comes to pollution/mile. As noted in the link, there's some argument on whether or not ethanol actually improves emissions as it raises NOx and HC emissions while lowers the evaporation point of gasoline. Regardless of ethanol's effect though, oxygenates are no longer necessary for pollution control with modern cars and the part of the Clean Air Act that mandated it should have been phased out.

wow.  You learn something new every day.

[Firethorn]

Ethanol is not a good fuel for your average vehicle.  The average gasoline engine maxes out at 15%, beyond that it runs very poorly.  It also lacks the lubricating quality of gasoline so you get increased upper engine wear.  Even flex fuel vehicles that can run on E85 can only go up to 85% and get bad gas mileage.

Comparatively.  Still, there are tricks you can do other than having the system simply adjust the air flow a bit, as most current E85 vehicles do.  I can't remember, but it was either BMW or Volkswagon that came up with a flex fuel vehicle that gets the same amount of mileage with ethanol as gasoline through the expedient of variable compression ratios.  When it detects that it has E85, it jacks the compression ratio way up, increasing efficiency.  It uses a turbo to enable this, but if you're willing to give up regular if you have to fill up with gasoline, you can up the compression ratio substantially and get many of the miles back.

[Bogie]

E10 seems to be an environmental thing around here - used to be, if I fueled up about 30 miles into Illinois, while visiting a friend, I got a LOT better mileage for the rest of the tank. I don't know if they've done it too yet or not.