Author Topic: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller  (Read 59567 times)

cslinger

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I was just musing to myself about how great it would be if we could put down several of these wedge issues and really start focusing on things that matter and real solutions to real problems.

I know silly me half of us have to hate the other half right.  Besides what would the media do?  Sigh.

Chris

Manedwolf

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Can't. Half a generation was brought up by liberal indoctrination to actually feel panic if they even see a firearm.

Brad Johnson

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Wouldn't it be great if Heller put to bed the wedge issue of guns..........


It would, but it won't.  Probability is it will be an extremely narrow judgement specific to DC.  As such, the rest of us are still left with our behinds flapping in the proverbial breeze.

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Balog

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1. No matter how broad and unambiguous Heller is, people will always seek easy solutions to complex issues. The 2nd itself is pretty damn clear, but people still choose to read what they want into it / ignore it.

2. What do you think of as "wedge issues" we should just dismiss?

3. What do you think are "real issues" that actually matter?
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Marvin Dao

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Re: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2008, 02:09:47 PM »
Well I was wrong on the date.  But I'll give it a go on the count either 8-1 (Stevens) or 7-2 (Stevens and Souter)

Scalia writing the decision makes it a slam dunk and could indicate a rather broad decision.

I'm thinking a 4-2-1-2 on the decisions.

Scalia goes in strong for Heller, Roberts, Alito, and Thomas sign on. He makes a broad ruling about the RKBA.

Kennedy goes in weak for Heller, Ginsberg signs on. They recognize the RKBA, strike down DC's laws, but allow DC space to rewrite the law and try again. Theirs will be the binding decision.

Breyer goes against Heller. He recognizes the RKBA, but says that DC's laws don't violate it.

Stevens and Souter go in strong against Heller. They don't recognize the RKBA at all.

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Uh oh...

Scalia just issued a majority ruling in another case...

I hope that doesn't mean anything...

It doesn't. The guess that Scalia will issue the majority opinion is because he hasn't issued a majority opinion from the March sitting and Heller is the only case left from the March sitting. The Scalia majority ruling presented today was from a different sitting.

Leatherneck

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The underlying issue is not gun control.
The underlying issue is CONTROL.
Over every aspect of your life that the power-hungry wimps want the government to wield the power of law upon you and me and us.

Standing Wolf will be along shortly to back me up, i trust.

TC
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cslinger

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Wedge issues like guns, gay marriage etc.  I guess what i really mean is I would like us to start focusing on core root causes whether that involves determining what said root causes are or dealing with things like the economy, education, poverty, etc. 

I think we have lost sight of trying to solve or mitigate our problems and instead look for easy answers or pander to a particular group for votes.

I know Heller will not be an end all be all, and frankly I don't think even a win will be more then symbolic early on but I do hope that it starts to take the gun issue off the table.

El Tejon

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I know Heller will not be an end all be all, and frankly I don't think even a win will be more then symbolic early on but I do hope that it starts to take the gun issue off the table.

There will be a long struggle ahead of us as we undergo successive waves of litigation on incorporation, licensing, safety boards, cosmetic gun bans, etc.

The "gun issue" is a freedom issue.  How a politician stands on guns is how he wants to stand on you.
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grampster

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Actually, I'm a bit worried that the 5 activists on the court will rule against.

Reasoning:  I believe they believe the constitution to be a living document that must be bent to whatever cultural demand is made of it rather than causing the culture to conform to the document.  In so doing, they ignore the provision in the document to modify it.  That's why judicial activism is not only wrong, but treason.

We actually need a constitutional amendment to limit the appointment of all federal judges to a 10 year term.  They can still be appointed as they are now, but out in 10 years.

5-4.  We lose.  You heard it here first.
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Standing Wolf

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The underlying issue is not gun control.
The underlying issue is CONTROL.
Over every aspect of your life that the power-hungry wimps want the government to wield the power of law upon you and me and us.

Standing Wolf will be along shortly to back me up, i trust.

More or less. Control is, indeed, the crux of the matter. Guns are, indeed, powerful in human hands, so they're the last thing leftists want to see permitted to commoners.

The "power-hungry wimps" are moral and intellectual wimps; they also, unfortunately, already have a great deal of power, and haven't been at all shy of using it to further their ends.

Leftism is the ideology that furthers the all-powerful, omniscient, omnipresent, all-owning state. For all practical purposes, the state leftists seek demands nothing short of worship: the peasants' and workers' complete subjugation, loyalty, dependence, trust, et cetra.

I'm afraid the supremacy of the state may be the norm throughout history, not the exception.

The principal questions to be asked are, as always:

1. Who benefits? As always, the self-appointed elite.
2. Who pays? As always, the vast majority.

Freedom isn't a "wedge issue." It's the fundamental issue. I'm sorry to tell you I think we've abandoned most of the freedom the United States started with. It's gone. Government is never going to give it back, and frankly, I'd be extremely surprised if we, the people, who are busy watching cable TV and fretting about the price of gasoline, have what it takes even to want it back, still less take it back. We, the people, weren't worthy of it.
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grampster

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Standing Wolf has hit the nail squarely upon the head.  Guns are not the issue, control is.  The Common Good has been twisted into the Common Necessity.  Political factions, the greatest fear of the Founders, has taken firm hold.  On the one side is government supremacy, fostered by both D's and R's, and reinforced by many federal courts.  (Not all, but some)  There is a small portion of the U.S. that pays strict attention and sees what has happened and is happening.

Our job is not to overthrow the existing political order with, say, a third party or other sillyness.  Nice idea and constitutionally correct.  But given the willingness of most Americans to be concerned only with short term issues, the status quo will not only rule the day, but increase.  Third parties and vocal minorities are like gnats in the backyard.  Unavoidable but insignificant.

So what shall we who crave freedom do?  Well, I say we do what we have always done quietly, work around the status quo. Do as we have always done; avoid the system by not poking it in the eye.  Speak softly to those who have the ability to be spoken to.  Maybe 50 or 75 years from now, sanity will be the order of the day and there will be much grinning and range time.

Freedom abounds.  It's just found in the seams.
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wmenorr67

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Actually, I'm a bit worried that the 5 activists on the court will rule against.

Reasoning:  I believe they believe the constitution to be a living document that must be bent to whatever cultural demand is made of it rather than causing the culture to conform to the document.  In so doing, they ignore the provision in the document to modify it.  That's why judicial activism is not only wrong, but treason.

We actually need a constitutional amendment to limit the appointment of all federal judges to a 10 year term.  They can still be appointed as they are now, but out in 10 years.

5-4.  We lose.  You heard it here first.

I will go the other way and at least say it is 5-4 we win.  The skinny is that Scalia is writing the majority.  I actually would like to see at least a 6-3 vote and a 7-2 would be a nail in the coffin for a lot of things.
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MicroBalrog

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Note who are the people who are most often talking about "wedge issues":

The Left.

In their deranged world-view, the only reason people vote for Republicans is because they are silly and fixated with "meaningless" issues like abortion or guns. What they really mean is that they want you to "compromise" with them, lie down, and take their vision of the future.

It's coming anyway.
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wmenorr67

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Re: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2008, 10:07:55 PM »
At this point in time as long as it is 5-4 us, a win is a win.  But if we could get a 6-3 or a 7-2 it is party time.

Because then you will see the 14th kick in and then a lot of things will fall our way.
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BryanP

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Yes, it would be nice.  I'm not counting on it.
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Perd Hapley

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Note who are the people who are most often talking about "wedge issues":

The Left.

In their deranged world-view, the only reason people vote for Republicans is because they are silly and fixated with "meaningless" issues like abortion or guns. What they really mean is that they want you to "compromise" with them, lie down, and take their vision of the future.
 

Well put.
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wmenorr67

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Re: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2008, 04:15:18 AM »
About an hour or so away.

Final guesses.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

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Only the dead have seen the end of war!

Manedwolf

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Re: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2008, 04:19:31 AM »
About an hour or so away.

Final guesses.

*runs around in circles*

I am nervous.

cherryriver

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Re: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2008, 04:26:05 AM »
After the two recent decisions in Boumediene (Gitmo) and Kennedy (death sentence), where they veered far outside of their authority and the law, I've become concerned, nearly alarmed, and what sort of extra-legal mischief that could emanate from their penumbras today.
Still, better now than in the new Obama court.  Who knows what sort of stuff that Court's going to invent.

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2008, 04:26:13 AM »
First time I've ever really paid this close attention to a SCOTUS decision.  And I've got friggin' butterflies I'm so anxious!!!!
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2008, 04:31:35 AM »
Regardless of what happens, I think it would be a great time to reflect on the wise words of Thomas Jefferson.

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"To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men and not more so. They have with others the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. Their maxim is boni judicis est ampliare jurisdictionem [good justice is broad jurisdiction], and their power the more dangerous as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820. ME 15:277

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"The judges certainly have more frequent occasion to act on constitutional questions, because the laws of meum and tuum and of criminal action, forming the great mass of the system of law, constitute their particular department. When the legislative or executive functionaries act unconstitutionally, they are responsible to the people in their elective capacity. The exemption of the judges from that is quite dangerous enough... The people themselves,... [with] their discretion [informed] by education, [are] the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." --Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820. ME 15:278


Firethorn

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Re: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2008, 04:31:52 AM »
First time I've ever really paid this close attention to a SCOTUS decision.  And I've got friggin' butterflies I'm so anxious!!!!

I'm probably going to start pounding F5 in a half hour...

Manedwolf

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Re: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2008, 04:35:59 AM »
First time I've ever really paid this close attention to a SCOTUS decision.  And I've got friggin' butterflies I'm so anxious!!!!

I'm probably going to start pounding F5 in a half hour...

You don't need to refresh their page. It's a push app.

wmenorr67

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Re: Merged - SCOTUS decision on Heller
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2008, 04:36:48 AM »
94-95% of the people on there are for the Heller decision.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

cslinger

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I would argue that "the left" and "the right" are minorities played up by the media etc.  I would argue that the great majority of America is made up of reasonable, if ignorant, centrists.  I use ignorant not as an insult but in terms of uneducated on a great many issues that may have very little bearing on their narrow individual lives. 

I would argue that it is dangerous to continue arguing for far left ideal or far right ideals and that to win back America we need to educate and win back the center. 

I would also think that there are several if not a great many folks on this site that hold ideals that cross current party lines but happen to lean more right then left.

I would also submit that the biggest problem with the big two parties is that neither view the Constitution as a whole and both pick and choose and legislate it into what they want it to be.  I agree its about control and I also agree it is about power.  I just think that if we could educate the masses instead of playing to the left or right we could take back at least a piece of this country.

But then again, no matter how bad it gets there's always bourbon.  Cheesy