OK, the see-through camera topic again

[Monkeyleg]

A couple of weeks back I asked about a camera that could "see through" clothing. I received various repsonses to my post, from "yeah, there was that Canon model XXX" to "yeah, there was that Canon model XXX, but give me a couple of geeks and I'll give you a camera that can do that."

I want a camera that can do that, and not for any kind of kinky/sexual/perverted reasons.

I have reasons that I think every member of APS would consider valid.

So....if you think you can take an existing camera and do whatever magic it takes to make it capable of showing what's underneath sport coats or shirts, let me know.

And I'm not just talking about white shirts. Think dress coats, suits, or dark shirts.

The camera must be portable and not look like some unwieldy piece of TSA equipment or somthing out of Star Wars. The underlying details of the photos must be at least crisp enough to be understood by the average Joe. IOW, if the photo shows a dollar bill, it has to read as a dollar bill to the man on the street.

If any of you feel you can fulfill this task, email me at dbaker@wi.rr.com

And let me know your price. I'm not talking unlimited budget, but there's a few thousands to deal with.

Also, I'm not looking to grab your invention. If you want to patent it, that's fine. I just want to be able to use it a few times.

BTW, if this isn't your specialty, but you know someone technically proficient enough to do the job, please have him or her email me as well.

[lwsimon]

i vote not possible.  The ones that were out there could only see through certain types of clothing, cotton IIRC.  They worked by recording near infra-red light, where certain fabrics are transparent.  

I've read about the possibility of using a low-power xray device to see through clothing.  You'd not be able to see a dollar bill, but you could easily detect a handgun or any other object above the size of a paper clip.

[mfree]

Not possible for anything thicker than a single layer, and then it's got to be a type of fabric that's IR transparent, which few are that are used in regular dress. UV would possibly be an option BUT the first time a piece of clothing is washed in modern detergents that's toast... it'd glow so brightly even if trqansparent that it'd wash everything out.

As for low-power X-rays, that's doable, but it's kind of hard to walk with a fridge-sized x-ray collimating device and display with a 440V feed on your back.

I'm puzzled nobody's tried a low-power RADAR type device with an extremely short wavelength, you'd need 300Ghz to get 1mm resolution though...

[cfabe]

mfree, I believe that is how the stuff TSA has started using works. Super high frequency very low power radar, in effect. But that is too cumbersome for what dick is looking for.

I would be interested to hear your motivations behind this though, Dick.

I don't think what you're looking for is possible with current technology, and certianly not by a couple of geeks in there spare time kind of possible.

[jefnvk]

Nope, those worked for light colored thin clothes.  Probably could detect a handgun, but with the clothes you'd be looking through, you could probably do that anyway.

[Monkeyleg]

Nope, those worked for light colored thin clothes.  Probably could detect a handgun, but with the clothes you'd be looking through, you could probably do that anyway.

Are you saying that there is a device that could detect a handgun even through a suit coat or sport jacket? If so, with what device? How portable?

As for my motivations, let's just say I work for the Second Amendment.

[cfabe]

Are you saying that there is a device that could detect a handgun even through a suit coat or sport jacket? If so, with what device? How portable?

Like a metal detector wand?

[Gewehr98]

Sony recalled the whole lot of them.  Some folks chose to keep them original, vs. sending them in, one of the guys who flies for me left his unmodified.  I've seen the videos, the clothing has to be of just-right material and thickness, but yes, it does work.  (I borrowed the camera and got a little *sassy* with Mrs. Gewehr98 one evening, as a matter of fact...)  

I doubt Sony will make that mistake, again.

[Harold Tuttle]

http://www.advanced-intelligence.com/camcorders.html
http://www.kaya-optics.com/products/overview.shtml

http://home.att.net/~infraredvideo/ir_video_000004.htm
Background

CCDs are highly sensitive to infrared light up to about 1200nm. In order to ensure good color rendition, an infrared blocking filter (also known as a "hot mirror" filter) is inserted in the light path to the CCD. Sony introduced a feature called "NightShot" in 1998 to take advantage of the infrared sensitivity of CCDs and allow recording of nighttime images. When the NightShot switch was set to On, the infrared blocking filter was retracted from the light path and tiny LEDs on the front of the camera emitted infrared light. The feature was designed to record animals at night, children sleeping, etc.  

 

"X-ray" Effect

Some quickly experimented with the NightShot feature in sunlight and discovered that if an infrared transmitting filter (which passes only infrared light and blocks all visible light) was placed on the camcorder and NightShot was turned on, the camcorder recorded pure infrared images during the daytime. Because infrared light passes through certain clothing fabrics, it was quickly discovered that the NightShot cameras had certain "X-ray" like properties.

 

Sony Modification

Concerned about negative publicity associated with the so-called X-ray effect, Sony disabled daylight infrared recording on its entire product line permanently beginning in August of 1998. It did so by disabling aperture control while in NightShot mode (effectively setting the aperture to wide open, which rendered infrared recording in daylight impossible due to over-saturation of the CCD and complete whiting-out of the image). However, Sony NightShot video cameras manufactured before August of 1998 have full aperture control and so make outstanding daytime infrared recording cameras.

i don't know how well a NiteMAx runs in daylight but this price is right:
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/nidinivivine.html

InfraredVideo.com says:
With the addition of an infrared transmitting filter (purchased separately), the NiteMax can be used to view incredible infrared images during daylight - either on the build in TFT-LCD flat panel display or any TV monitor via the video output on the rear panel

[jefnvk]

No, the old Sony's could see somewhat through light colored, thin clothes, you can get blurry views of what is underneath.  These are the type of clothes that it probably wouldn't be to hard to spot a gun beneath anyways.

[Monkeyleg]

Thanks again for all the replies.

I need the camera described above, and for honest purposes.

Again, please email me if you either have one or know how to reconstruct one.

[Chuck Dye]

Run your favorite search engine on "millimeter wave photography."

[Sergeant Bob]

Just order some of those X-Ray glasses out of the back of the comic boooks.

[Monkeyleg]

Very funny, Sergeant Bob. I actually did that when I was a young kid back about 1960 or so.

Huck Phinn, I ran the search you suggested. Any devices out there that actually work would probably attract the attention of the governor's bodyguards, not to mention the National Security Agency.

[Chuck Dye]

The original discussion that led to my post suggested that there will be (or already are) gadgets with the size and appearance of amateur video cameras that would allow cops driving down a city street to ID concealed weapons as if they were openly carried.  One gadgeteer friend speculated that he could easily build the bulky parts into a fanny pack and put the receiver and display into only slightly clunky sunglasses.   The bull session in question was seven or eight years ago, an awfully long time in gadgeteering.

[Fly320s]

I remember hear news reports of that camera but a Google search was fruitless.  Although, I did find this gem: http://cs-people.bu.edu/aaron/turret/turret.htm

Eureka: http://www.india-today.com/ctoday/20011001/marvels.html

Does that help?

[Monkeyleg]

Nothing helps unless a non-threatening photojournalist type can put one of these cameras on his/her shoulder and get some good shots of the anti-gun politico's.

I don't know how to do that. Maybe someone else here does.

The end goal should seem obvious.

[Fly320s]

Gotcha.

Becoming a photojournalist type is easy, just make yourself an official-looking ID that shows you to be a freelancer.

As for the good shots... you're going to need patience and luck.

What is the max effective range of those cameras?

[Antibubba]

Monkeyleg,

   You don't need evidence-you just need Photoshop.  put it out on the web on easy-to-access sites, and let the antis deny away.  If the truth had any value, don't you think everyone would be telling it?

[Monkeyleg]

Antibubba, I think a manipulated image of the governor carrying a gun might result in a little trouble.

I'd really like to get a look at what's under his coat, and under the jackets of some of the people around him. It could make for some good press.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If it's just a matter of infrared photography, it should be pretty easy.  IR photography has been around for quite a while now.  It often used for artistic affect, to give warm objects (skin, usually) a sort of surreal glow.

All it takes is some IR film, and maybe a dedicated IR lens filter to block out visible light:
http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=itemlist&cat1=Film&cat2=Infrared%20Film
http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=itemlist&cat1=Filters&cat2=Infra-Red%20Filters


But don't get your hopes up.  I've never noticed any sort of "X-ray vision" effects in the infrared photos I've seen.  I doubt this will do what you want.  But I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try.

This link will probably tell you more than you want to know about photography outside of the visible spectrum (IR, UV, etc):
http://www.photo.net/learn/optics/edscott/spectsel

Hope this helps...

[Antibubba]

First, get a really big electromagnet...

Short of flipping on the MRI as he walks past, I think you're going to have trouble with detecting this particular chunk of metal.  I can think of a few things just this side of science fiction, but the hard part is "undetectable".  Also, while these public figures may be packing, they'll likely have something small and lightweight that they can conceal very easily, since most of them will have visible protectors.  

Suddenly, my thoughts have turned to radar.  A shoulder-mounted maser and pick-up dish?  Feh.