Author Topic: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy  (Read 11585 times)

Manedwolf

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2008, 05:13:21 AM »
"But the threat of terrorists to America is not even comparative to the threat that has been posed to America by other forces in previous times. America's military might is near-legendary."

Once could say the same thing about Israel's military presence, especially compared to its neighbors.

Why, then, is Israel so worried about the threat of terrorists?

Why, then, were you yelping about new home-made rockets that could reach the town where you live?

After all, I've never heard any of the Palestinian groups threatening to burn down the Knesset.

Obviously the threat posed by the Syrian or Iranian armies is FAR greater than the threat posed by a couple of guys with suicide vests or a couple of home made rockets.

Why all the theatrics, then?

I think the primary difference is that America and Israel both have a noble restraint, a conscience, that rogue nations do not.

Israel COULD just FAE the entire Gaza Strip and "solve" the problem forever. But they wouldn't, because that would be wrong.

On the other hand, if Hamas got hold of a nuke, they'd immediately set it off in Tel Aviv, then dance in the streets.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2008, 05:13:46 AM »
Quote
Why, then, were you yelping about new home-made rockets that could reach the town where you live?

I was not yelping about the new factory-made MRLS rockets being able to reach my town. I have never expressed personal fear of these rockets. In fact, I remember posting on these boards that I do not know whether it is worth it to inform my friends abroad of this fact, lest they be unduly intimidated by it before it is verified.

Quote
Why, then, is Israel so worried about the threat of terrorists?

For one, I have stated repeatedly on these forums that I view Israel's concerns regarding these countries excessive.

If anything, Israel is today safer than it was during the waves of terror attacks in the mid-90's, the great Arab-Israeli Wars, and so forth.

I have repeatedly said on these forums that the threat from terrorists and their buddies to Israel is not enough to justify Israel's military draft, the overspending of the military-industrial complex in Israel, and so forth.


Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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roo_ster

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2008, 05:57:04 AM »
That said, there is a lot of truth in the first part of what you are saying, although if anything Iraq has tended to diminish any awe that the US military has in the wider world - not so much technologically or because of its quality, but more because of the realisation that it is led by politicians who do not share its excellence (the same goes for the UK as well, but that is another matter).

Someone wiser than I once described that situation as, "Lions led by asses."
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roo_ster

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roo_ster

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2008, 06:08:19 AM »
Well, TBH, if Obama gets elected, wouldn't it be true that the Democrats have succeeded?

From America's previous military history, we know America's military is extremely good. Even in those wars that America won  say, Vietnam  the military has performed admirably, and inflicted terrible casualties upon the enemy. The bravery and the professionalism of the American soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen had never been put into question in any major conflict.

However, America's society does not lend itself well to prolonged conflict. Almost always the process is the same  first America gets itself into a prolonged conflict somewhere, and first there is enthusiasm, and then the media  and after them, the general public  begin gnawing away at the process.

What will happen in Iraq, should America stay, will be approximately as follows:

America will stay, and America will continue to kick Islamist butt for the duration. Slowly but surely, progress will likely be made. However, the media will continue to eat away at the public support of the war. Then, eventually, after some sob story or another  another 'burning girl' picture or one more Haditha 'scandal', or another Tet Offensive-like event  the public's patience will break, and America will fold from Iraq on the least opportune moment. Hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives will be pissed away, and the leftoids will gain enormous political capital for it.

In fact, unless a sweeping cultural change occurs  of a kind that currently cannot be predicted  any prolonged counter-insurgency effort overseas is in danger of ending up like this.

I don't see how this can be avoided.

Now, since America will fold from Iraq under the media pressure eventually, why not do it now and avoid wasting 500 billion dollars more?

Furthermore, as I already pointed out, America can afford to have a policy of engagement, rather than invasion.

You're not going to be automatically seen as cowards if you negotiate with your enemies. And if some country is stupid enough to think that America is weak because it negotiated with nation X or entity Y, and attacks America on that rationale, the US Navy, Air Force, Marines and Army are going to squash them like a bug.

Because it ain't Belgium or Poland. It's America.

I see this as a mis-reading of history.

A few counter-examples:
WWII: Years of heavy combat & the years-long occupation of Germany and Japan, as well as the decades we have had American troops stationed in W Europe and Japan.

Korean War: Years of battle & stationing of tens of thousands of American troops in S Korea for decades.

Balkans: It has been 13 years since we have had our troops in that cauldron of *expletive deleted*it.

No great outcry by America about the above commitments, even the 60+ year commitments.  Clinton promised our boys would be out of Yugoslavia in a year.  Thirteen years ago.  Where are the constant media reports excoriating our boys' treatment of the locals?  Where is ANSWER and the drum circles calling for us to get outta the Balkans and let them sort it out?  Where are the congresscritters raging about flawed intel and being lied to?

There are reasons why we don't see the media and their post/anti-American allies going apeshiite over the above commitments, while tearing into the current conflict.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2008, 06:12:32 AM »
If anything, Israel is today safer than it was during the waves of terror attacks in the mid-90's, the great Arab-Israeli Wars, and so forth.

And it got that way after killing the hell outta the terrorists' leadership.  Repeatedly.  Until it became clear that Israel had more Hellfire missiles than guys who were willing to jump into terrorist leadership roles to be the target of the week.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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K Frame

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2008, 06:13:04 AM »
Here's your actual quote, Balrog...


"The General Security Service believes that Hamas now has rockets capable of reaching Ashdod. Which is where I live. I'm not sure if I should be worried - I'm more likely to be hit by lightning than by a Grad - but my fiancee will be scared s**tless when the rockets (inevitably) start falling where I live and she (inevitably) hears about it on the news."


You're not sure if you should be worried? Sounds like concern to me. Just why are you concerned? Obviously you consider it to be an inevitability, yet you apparently think that nothing should be done to counter the threat?

That's the most insanely perverse "logic" I have EVER heard.
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K Frame

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2008, 06:14:46 AM »
If anything, Israel is today safer than it was during the waves of terror attacks in the mid-90's, the great Arab-Israeli Wars, and so forth.

And it got that way after killing the hell outta the terrorists' leadership.  Repeatedly.  Until it became clear that Israel had more Hellfire missiles than guys who were willing to jump into terrorist leadership roles to be the target of the week.


Bingo, fruser.

The security Balrog is enjoying today is the result of massive Isralie military and covert operations, economic sanctions, and in part an ENORMOUS border wall.

Yet, apparently all that was unnecessary and this era of relative security would have magically appeared out of thin air.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2008, 06:15:16 AM »
"yet you apparently think that nothing should be done to counter the threat? "

Is that what I said? Because it isn't.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2008, 06:22:43 AM »
Let me elaborate on what I previously said.

During WWII, the Good Guys spent almost the entire product of their countries on wars. There was a military draft, private property was seized, internment camps were built, every single thing that could have been sacrificed for victory, was sacrificed.

The relative calm [as compared to the horrors of WWII] was achieved only at the cost of sacrifice of millions of heroes and unknown billions of dollars.

And yet, when it came, it was possible to shut down these expenses, because the WAR WAS OVER.

Similarly, because Israel beat its enemies in various wars, and because it signed vastly successful peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt, Israel is now no longer surrounded by enemies from all directions. Some of our other enemies have become weaker or been destroyed by our allies, or each other. Clearly we can - and need to - stand down from the notion that "we are a nation surrounded by foes and anything is justifiable by that", becuase we no longer are in that sort of emergency.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2008, 06:45:14 AM »
Israel is now no longer surrounded by enemies from all directions.

If Israel laid down its arms, it would be overrun within days.

That is an incredible naive thing to say.

agricola

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2008, 06:54:16 AM »
Israel is now no longer surrounded by enemies from all directions.

If Israel laid down its arms, it would be overrun within days.

That is an incredible naive thing to say.

He isnt saying that.  He is saying that the level of militarization of Israeli society is not appropriate at the current time, and in the current security situation.  Or are JBTs ok, just as long as they are your JBTs?
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Balog

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2008, 06:55:46 AM »
Israel is now no longer surrounded by enemies from all directions.

If Israel laid down its arms, it would be overrun within days.

That is an incredible naive thing to say.

He isnt saying that.  He is saying that the level of militarization of Israeli society is not appropriate at the current time, and in the current security situation.  Or are JBTs ok, just as long as they are your JBTs?

A brit lecturing someone on the evils of JBTs..... the irony is astounding.
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agricola

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2008, 06:58:03 AM »
Israel is now no longer surrounded by enemies from all directions.

If Israel laid down its arms, it would be overrun within days.

That is an incredible naive thing to say.

He isnt saying that.  He is saying that the level of militarization of Israeli society is not appropriate at the current time, and in the current security situation.  Or are JBTs ok, just as long as they are your JBTs?

A brit lecturing someone on the evils of JBTs..... the irony is astounding.

I am sorry, I didnt realise my nationality precluded me having an opinion on something.  Carry on with your own, irony-free, ranting.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2008, 09:57:53 AM »
Israel is now no longer surrounded by enemies from all directions.

If Israel laid down its arms, it would be overrun within days.

That is an incredible naive thing to say.

Manedwolf. Where did I say we need to 'lay down our arms'?

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MechAg94

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2008, 10:00:36 AM »
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2008, 10:03:16 AM »
Israel is now no longer surrounded by enemies from all directions.

If Israel laid down its arms, it would be overrun within days.

That is an incredible naive thing to say.

Manedwolf. Where did I say we need to 'lay down our arms'?


You said Israel is no longer surrounded by enemies.  I believe he pulled the implication from that. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Balog

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2008, 12:14:10 PM »
Quote from: agricola
I am sorry, I didnt realise my nationality precluded me having an opinion on something.  Carry on with your own, irony-free, ranting.

Slow your roll there. I wasn't saying you weren't allowed to have an opinion. I was merely pointing out the pot vs kettle nature of your comments.
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wideym

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2008, 04:13:07 AM »
MicroBalrog:  Israel's peace treaties will last only as long as it's military strength.  It would only take a revolution in Jordan or Eygpt to make those treaties null and void, and if the religious wackjobs thought for a minute they could successfully invade Isreal due to its weak military, then game on.

How many allies does Isreal truely have?  Ones who would send not only supplies, but troops?  Expecially if OPEC threatens to cut off oil if your allies interced?  Personally I can only think of the U.S.  But if the POTUS and his admistration decide not to help or threaten retaliation if Isreal used it's own nukes in defending itself, what then? 

Most of your neighboring countries tolerate Isreal only because they can't defeat you one on one or even five on one.  If that equation changes radically all bets are off.

BTW:  I visited Elait and Jerusalem several times during the Gulf War and found Isrealis to be very welcoming and pleasent people, expecially with Saddam launching missiles at them.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Winnie the Pooh on Foreign Policy
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2008, 04:21:54 AM »
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Israel's peace treaties will last only as long as it's military strength

This however does not mean we must live as if we were constantly in a military emergency, because we are no longer in such an emergency.

You can maintain a military force and not dedicate your entire being to a WWII-like fight.

Quote
Ones who would send not only supplies, but troops?

Turkey?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner