Author Topic: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem  (Read 5209 times)

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« on: July 01, 2008, 08:30:15 AM »





http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2008/07/obamas-real-pat.html?loc=interstitialskip
Obama's real patriotism problem
He sees an America in which the cup is half-empty. Is his America the same one most Americans think of as they wave flags and celebrate the Fourth of July?

By Jonah Goldberg

Barack Obama has a patriotism problem that even Monday's flag-waving trip to Independence, Mo., can't squelch. And it doesn't have anything to do with his lapel pin.


In part because liberal commentators have such a hard time grasping why patriotism should be an issue at all, and the GOP is so clumsy explaining why it's important, the debate often gets boiled down to symbols. Like so much else about Obama, his position on the lapel flag changes with the needs of the moment. After 9/11, he wore it. During the debates over the Iraq war, he stopped because he saw the flag as a sign of support for President Bush. (He started wearing it again in May.) "I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest," he added in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. "Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great and, hopefully, that will be a testimony to my patriotism."

Read that line again: "What I believe will make this country great."

Not to sound too much like a Jewish mother, but some might respond, "What? It's not great now?"

This sense that America is in need of fixing in order to be a great country points to Obama's real patriotism problem. And it's not Obama's alone.

'Fundamentally good'

Definitions of patriotism proliferate, but in the American context patriotism must involve not only devotion to American texts (something that distinguishes our patriotism from European nationalism) but also an abiding belief in the inherent and enduring goodness of the American nation. We might need to change this or that policy or law, fix this or that problem, but at the end of the day the patriotic American believes that America is fundamentally good as it is.

It's the "good as it is" part that has vexed many on the left since at least the Progressive era. Marxists and other revolutionaries obviously don't believe entrepreneurial and religious America is good as it is. But even more mainstream figures have a problem distinguishing patriotic reform from reformation. Many progressives in the 1920s considered the American hinterlands a vast sea of yokels and boobs, incapable of grasping how much they needed what the activists were selling.

The Nation ran a famous series then called "These United States," in which smug emissaries from East Coast cities chronicled the "backward" attitudes of what today would be called fly-over country. One correspondent proclaimed that in "backwoods" New York (i.e. outside the Big Apple): "Resistance to change is their most sacred principle." If that was their attitude to New York, it shouldn't surprise that they felt even worse about the South. One author explained that Dixie needed nothing less than an invasion of liberal "missionaries" so that the "light of civilization" might finally be glimpsed down there. These authors simply assumed, writes intellectual historian Christopher Lasch, that " 'breaking with the past' was the precondition of cultural and political advance." Even today, writes Time's Joe Klein, "This is a chronic disease among Democrats, who tend to talk more about what's wrong with America than what's right."

Echoes of these attitudes can be found in Obama's now infamous explanation that "bitter" working-class rural voters won't embrace him because they "cling" to God, guns and bigotry. But Obama's sometimes messianic rhetoric about "remaking" America  and the explicitly revolutionary aesthetics of his campaign  also rings a bell. "I am absolutely certain," he proclaimed upon clinching the Democratic nomination, "that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal." So wait, America never provided care for the sick or good jobs for the jobless until St. Barack arrived? That doesn't sound like the country most Americans think of when they wave their flags on the Fourth of July.

Obama went on to say that he will "remake" the country. Well, what if you don't want it remade? And Michelle Obama  who believes America is "downright mean" and is proud of America for the first time because of her husband's success  insists that Barack will make you "work" for change and that he will "demand that you, too, be different." What if you don't want to work for Obama's change? What if you don't want to be "different"?

America's 'Jedi Knight'

Liberals might giggle at what to them sounds like paranoia. But if you aren't already entranced by Obama, Obamania can seem not only vaguely anti-American but also downright otherworldly. Star Wars creator George Lucas recently proclaimed that it's "reasonably obvious" Obama is a Jedi Knight. Mark Morford, a particularly loopy San Francisco Chronicle columnist, says Obama isn't really "one of us." Rather, he's a "Lightworker," the sort of being who can help us find "a new way of being on the planet." Self-help guru Deepak Chopra insists that an Obama victory would bring about "a quantum leap in American consciousness." Even NBC's Chris Matthews has been entranced by Obama's Jedi mind tricks. Obamania, he says, is "bigger than Kennedy. & This is the New Testament."

The notion that what America needs is a redeemer figure to "remake" America from scratch isn't necessarily unpatriotic. But for lots of Americans who like America the way it is, it's sometimes hard to tell when it isn't.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2008, 08:36:47 AM »
Obama is a post-American, an internationalist. That should be obvious by now. He says things along those lines all the time.

Didn't you hear that line about the fact that we can't eat as much as we want and expect the rest of the world will be okay with it?

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 11:04:01 AM »
That article nailed it.  I believe in Reagan's America (that should bring Paddy out of the woodwork), where today is good, but tomorrow we can be better.

Obama's America is evil today, but if we all say "Yes We Can"  then tomorrow as we work for Change and Hope things will be Different.  Our chains won't feel so heavy as we truge off to St. Obama's Hope and Light re-edcuation Personal Fulfillment Centers to get our work assignments from Michelle Obama.

I believe is America is a great country, not perfect, but we do our best to do what's right.   Obama believes that we're a bad country and needs to be totally transformed.  That scares me.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2008, 11:08:30 AM »
Yup, deep down Obama sincerely dislikes our country.  That's the polar opposite of patriotism.

nico

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 678
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2008, 02:24:23 PM »
That article nailed it.  I believe in Reagan's America (that should bring Paddy out of the woodwork), where today is good, but tomorrow we can be better.

Obama's America is evil today, but if we all say "Yes We Can" "Si se puede" then tomorrow as we work for Change and Hope things will be Different.  Our chains won't feel so heavy as we truge off to St. Obama's Hope and Light re-edcuation Personal Fulfillment Centers to get our work assignments from Michelle Obama.

I believe is America is a great country, not perfect, but we do our best to do what's right.   Obama believes that we're a bad country and needs to be totally transformed.  That scares me.

Fixed undecided

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 02:39:01 PM »
The analysis behind this article is fundamentally flawed, because it does not take up the question of whose/which America we're talking about when we say it's fundamentally good.

Ask one group what is core Americana versus "a few laws and policies that need changing", and you will get one answer.

Ask another, and you get a different one.

Depending on the answer to the question, one's views about whether or not we are in need of serious reforms will vary...and that includes Jonah Goldberg.  For example, I'm sure he'd have a problem with characterizing "America" as a country with a long history of violent popular opposition to drafts, wars of any kind, and a population with a strong penchant for joining massive labor organizations and guilds to demand higher pay and other concessions.  If someone says that's what America is fundamentally, and that it only needs a few policy changes to undo the Reagan alterations to traditional American society....well, of course Goldberg is going to be in support of big reform. 

Or he'll just deny that this is America, but it's obvious that legitimate and entirely acceptable arguments can be made to present very different pictures about what kind of country this is.

By not considering the question, this article conceals an obvious partisan bias that, were it to be explicit in the text, would almost certainly lead every reasonable reader to conclude that this is a piece of political propaganda and not an honest analysis of Barack Obama's beliefs (or lack of them, to be accurate.)

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 04:35:00 PM »
The analysis behind this article is fundamentally flawed, because it does not take up the question of whose/which America we're talking about when we say it's fundamentally good.

Ask one group what is core Americana versus "a few laws and policies that need changing", and you will get one answer.

Ask another, and you get a different one.

Depending on the answer to the question, one's views about whether or not we are in need of serious reforms will vary...and that includes Jonah Goldberg.  For example, I'm sure he'd have a problem with characterizing "America" as a country with a long history of violent popular opposition to drafts, wars of any kind, and a population with a strong penchant for joining massive labor organizations and guilds to demand higher pay and other concessions.  If someone says that's what America is fundamentally, and that it only needs a few policy changes to undo the Reagan alterations to traditional American society....well, of course Goldberg is going to be in support of big reform. 

Or he'll just deny that this is America, but it's obvious that legitimate and entirely acceptable arguments can be made to present very different pictures about what kind of country this is.

By not considering the question, this article conceals an obvious partisan bias that, were it to be explicit in the text, would almost certainly lead every reasonable reader to conclude that this is a piece of political propaganda and not an honest analysis of Barack Obama's beliefs (or lack of them, to be accurate.)


Well isn't that just a great big steaming pile of bovine excrement.

The country was founded on core principals and values.  That core is unchangeable.  It is what it is, and it is what it was.  No amount of wishful thinking will make, for example, the Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights say something other than what they say.  History is immutable.

Obama's vision for our country is correctly thought of as an alternative to America.  No amount of moral relativism will make what he supports equate to America.

You cannot say that Obama loves his country, because what he loves isn't America.  What he loves is his alternative vision for America.  Patriotism is love for one's country, not love for alternatives to one's country.

But let's ignore this for a moment.  You still cannot escape the fact that Obama doesn't favor America however it is defined.  As an example, whatever it is that Obama thinks America represents, he denounces it by refusing to wear America's flag on his lapel.  As another example, whatever America is to Obama, Obama sought guidance from a preacher who damns it.  A dislike for America, howsoever defined, is clearly one of the core underlying principles of Obama's beliefs.

Obama clearly has no love for his country, however you define it, and there's only one right way to define it.  He isn't patriotic no matter how you slice it.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 05:19:42 PM »
Quote
The country was founded on core principals and values.  That core is unchangeable.  It is what it is, and it is what it was.  No amount of wishful thinking will make, for example, the Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights say something other than what they say.  History is immutable.

Yes, history is immutable-but what we say about it, and what evidence we choose to emphasize and what evidence we choose to minimize, is most certainly mutable.

Working for wages was considered akin to slavery in that period, for example.  There were also violent and ugly confrontations with bitter veterans (the people who gave their lives and health to make this country) demanding land redistribution and the abolition of any title preceeding the foundation of the new state.

Of course, some people want to ignore all of that and focus on a 20th century imagination as to what the Declaration of Independence meant and who the "real" inspiring fathers were-but that is interpretation, not "immutable history".

Quote
You cannot say that Obama loves his country, because what he loves isn't America.  What he loves is his alternative vision for America.  Patriotism is love for one's country, not love for alternatives to one's country.

You could just as easily argue that he believes his vision is the real american spirit-and that he intends to reform government to bring it back to its populist roots. 

That is why it's necessary to consider the question of "what is America and what are its core values" in an article like this one.  Otherwise, it's not possible to make a coherent argument about what Obama is or is not wanting to change about "core America." 

Quote
  You still cannot escape the fact that Obama doesn't favor America however it is defined.

I don't think this view of Obama holds any water whatsoever.  I'm concerned with articles of patriotism other than wearing a flag pin (made in china in all probability) or a photo shoot. 

Just because you don't believe Wright and Obama and whoever else capture the American spirit, doesn't automatically make it so.  The point isn't to say that you're wrong about them-it's to make clear the obvious fact that an article that claims to rebuke them for "not loving this America's core values" can't possibly make a complete argument without considering what "core America" is, and why Obama and Wright can claim that they represent the true "core values" of America.

Of course, to do so usually makes one's political bias blatantly obvious-and that's probably why it was left out.  Because then it would be a propaganda piece, and wouldn't be able to masquerade as "analytical" or whatever Mr. Goldberg would like to call it.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 05:55:31 PM »
Heh.  Yeah.  Goldberg didn't bother to define "America" and "patriotism" for his readers. 

Only a staunch Leftist would need to have "patriotism" and "America" spelled out for them.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2008, 06:05:09 PM »
Heh.  Yeah.  Goldberg didn't bother to define "America" and "patriotism" for his readers. 

Only a staunch Leftist would need to have "patriotism" and "America" spelled out for them.

Right...because no one could ever legitimately disagree as to what constitutes the core of American values?

This is called partisan propaganda, and it works by presuming the answer before even asking the question.  It is what it is, but it isn't a rational comment on the politicians or their positions.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2008, 06:31:51 PM »
Oh c'mon.  If you think that America is any crazy thing you want it to be, that it can be changed to serve your whims on a moment-by-moment basis, then you're wrong.  This pervasive moral relativism is a load of crap.  It's intellectually dishonest.

Of course Goldberg presumed to know what America is, without first bothering to ask what it is.  Most of us don't need to be told what America is in every single article we read.  Like Goldberg, we already know what America is.  It isn't propaganda, it's just the simple truth.

You know what isn't rational comment on the politicians or their positions?  It's these constant attempts to influence the debate by redefining the terms.  At best, all it does is muddy the waters until nobody can be sure of anything.  Honestly, you're trying to polish the turd that is Obama's patriotism by diluting the concept of America until it loses all meaning.  How does that elevate the debate any?

Over the weekend, Obama said he isn't going to question anyone else's patriotism in the campaign, nor is he going to allow anyone to question his own patriotism.  Well of course he doesn't want to discus patriotism in the campaign!  He knows his opponent's is beyond reproach, and he knows his own sucks eggs.  Rational comment on the politicians?  Obama doesn't want any of that.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2008, 12:59:07 AM »
The fact is, people disagree what America is all about. Shootinstudent is right that disagreement exists. But the fact that people disagree does not mean everybody is equally right.

I will even grant it to Shootinstudent that nobody, not even me [and I'm as close to being omniscient as a man ever came, in fact, I'm the new Messiah, not Obama] is in full possession of the truth. But some people are just tragically, horribly wrong.

Adopting the belief systems that are tragically, horribly wrong leads to inevitable tragedy and horror.

Sometimes it's 'small tragedy'  like Waco, or Ruby Ridge, or just people losing jobs because someone adopted a flawed economic policy. So it's not as big as Stalin's death and labor camps. But its still wrong.

The fact that different people have different opinions does not mean that some people are just tragically wrong.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2008, 10:02:47 PM »
Well, it's hard to be patriotic when your allegiances lie with the "underclass" and not with the nation as a whole.  Obama loves the "new America:" that's the one that is comprised of an ever-growing number of grievance groups that feel wronged by "The White Whale."
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2008, 08:30:02 PM »
Well, it's hard to be patriotic when your allegiances lie with the "underclass" and not with the nation as a whole.  Obama loves the "new America:" that's the one that is comprised of an ever-growing number of grievance groups that feel wronged by "The White Whale."

No, his allegiances don't lie with the underclass. He's part of the Beautful People crowd, lives in a Georgian mansion outside Chicago, is part of the high-end social scene.

That's yet one more rather obvious deception that people are swallowing. He is a Liberal Elite.

xavier fremboe

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 904
  • All-American Meanie
    • The Shop
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2008, 12:30:24 AM »
Heh.  Yeah.  Goldberg didn't bother to define "America" and "patriotism" for his readers. 

Only a staunch Leftist would need to have "patriotism" and "America" spelled out for them.

Right...because no one could ever legitimately disagree as to what constitutes the core of American values?

This is called partisan propaganda, and it works by presuming the answer before even asking the question.  It is what it is, but it isn't a rational comment on the politicians or their positions.
I could try to find my own words to define the core of American values, but I'd end up paraphrasing this anyway.  Might as well let Tommy take this one.
Quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
If the bandersnatch seems even mildly frumious, best to shun it.  Really. http://www.cctplastics.com

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: Obama's Real Patriotism Problem
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2008, 07:04:40 AM »
It is quite possible to be, stealthily, for the elite and also, publicly, for "the masses."

Have we not seen this in every autocratic regime, both left and right?

Communist leadership never lived in cold-water flats.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.