Author Topic: ACLU and Heller  (Read 18304 times)

Manedwolf

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2008, 05:04:49 AM »
Quote
What do you mean? Besides there belief in what the 2A is supposed to mean they still fight to protect the others. And I have read that they are slowly coming to accept it for what it truly means, read about it in one of my copies of the Reason magazine.

The ACLU fights to destroy America.  The people they "protect" are merely stalking horses to advance their destructive radical agenda.


Elaborate, please.

They refuse to touch Second Amendment rights, but jump to the defense of execrable slime like NAMBLA.

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2008, 05:25:28 AM »
Quote
What do you mean? Besides there belief in what the 2A is supposed to mean they still fight to protect the others. And I have read that they are slowly coming to accept it for what it truly means, read about it in one of my copies of the Reason magazine.

The ACLU fights to destroy America.  The people they "protect" are merely stalking horses to advance their destructive radical agenda.


Elaborate, please.

The ACLU is a leftist organization that projects a liberty-minded false-front (See "popular front" as used in Stalinist doctrine).



Roger Baldwin, the a founder and first executive director of the ACLU said:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Roger_Nash_Baldwin
I have continued directing the unpopular fight for the rights of agitation, as director of the American Civil Liberties Union.... I am for socialism, disarmament and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control by those who produce wealth. Communism is, of course, the goal.

And if that wasn't enough, his article in Soviet Russia Today has some gems (emphasis in original):
http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/blog/baldwin.pdf
    * I believe in non-violent methods of struggle as most effective in the long run for building up successful working class power. Where they cannot be followed or where they are not even permitted by the ruling class, obviously only violent tactics remain. I champion civil liberty as the best of the non-violent means of building the power on which workers rule must be based. If I aid the reactionaries to get free speech now and then, if I go outside the class struggle to fight against censorship, it is only because those liberties help to create a more hospitable atmosphere for working class liberties. The class struggle is the central conflict of the world; all others are incidental.

    * When that power of the working class is once achieved, as it has been only in the Soviet Union, I am for maintaining it by any means whatever. Dictatorship is the obvious means in a world of enemies at home and abroad. I dislike it in principle as dangerous to its own objects. But the Soviet Union has already created liberties far greater than exist elsewhere in the world. They are liberties that most closely affect the lives of the people  power in the trade unions, in peasant organizations, in the cultural life of nationalities, freedom of women in public and private life, and a tremendous development of education for adults and children.

    * I saw in the Soviet Union many opponents of the regime. I visited a dozen prisons  the political sections among them. I saw considerable of the work of the OGPU. I heard a good many stories of severity, even of brutality, and many of them from the victims. While I sympathized with personal distress I just could not bring myself to get excited over the suppression of opposition when I stacked it up against what I saw of fresh, vigorous expressions of free living by workers and peasants all over the land. And further, no champion of a socialist society could fail to see that some suppression was necessary to achieve it. It could not all be done by persuasion.

    * If American champions of civil liberty could all think in terms of economic freedom as the goal of their labors, they too would accept "workers' democracy" as far superior to what the capitalist world offers to any but a small minority. Yes, and they would accept  regretfully, of course  the necessity of dictatorship while the job of reorganizing society on a socialist basis is being done.



I could go on, but it is more text-based fellatio on the shades of Marx and on the very real, contemporary, USSR of Lenin and Stalin. 

Eugene Volokh discusses RNB a bit in the folowing post:
http://www.volokh.com/posts/1126720462.shtml



To sum up, RNB founded the ACLU to be a liberal false-front for communists and communist aims. 

He admired, supported, and defended the USSR & Stalin all through the bloody revolution, the general oppression, the show trials, the Ukraine terror-famine, and whatnot.  He only stopped blowing kisses to Stalin after the Molotov-Ribentropp pact.

The ACLU is not an organization to admire or to associate with.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2008, 06:04:13 AM »
Where do I start?

Now, of course, I am well aware of the fact the founders of the ACLU have been communists and socialists, and that many of its modern funders are (to borrow Manedwolf's catchphrase) post-American leftoids.

That however does not answer my questions.

The current ACLU concentrates its activities (to the best of my knowledge) on pursuing lawsuits in favor of 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th Amendment freedoms, even to the point of extreme radicalism (supporting the free speech rights of hentai publishers, Nazis, and NAMBLA, or demanding that Gitmo prisoners be allowed access to trials by jury).

They also put a load of money into 1st Amendment wall of separation suits, which they also take to what I consider an unadvisable extreme.

However, these activities are not per se anti-American, unless I missed a clue somewhere.
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Manedwolf

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2008, 06:13:20 AM »
Check the ratio of leftist 1A suits they file vs. conservative or religious 1A suits.

MicroBalrog

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2008, 06:13:56 AM »
Check the ratio of leftist 1A suits they file vs. conservative or religious 1A suits.


Yes, but the precedent set is good for everyone. 1A suits are 1A suits, they're not "unAmerican", I'd think. And they've made an excellent job with "Busted".
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Manedwolf

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ACLU's statement on Heller
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2008, 06:57:26 AM »
Well, here's the ACLU's official LYING response...

Quote
The Right To Bear Arms

The Second Amendment has not been the subject of much Supreme Court discussion through the years. To the extent it has been discussed, the Court has described the Second Amendment as designed to protect the ability of the states to preserve their own sovereignty against a new and potentially overreaching national government. Based on that understanding, the Court has historically construed the Second Amendment as a collective right connected to the concept of a "well-regulated militia" rather than an individual right to possess guns for private purposes.

In Heller, the Court reinterpreted the Second Amendment as a source of individual rights. Washington D.C.'s gun control law, which bans the private possession of handguns and was widely considered the most restrictive such law in the country, became a victim of that reinterpretation.
 
The Court was careful to note that the right to bear arms is not absolute and can be subject to reasonable regulation. Yet, by concluding that D.C.'s gun control law was unreasonable and thus invalid, the Court placed a constitutional limit on gun control legislation that had not existed prior to its decision in Heller. It is too early to know how much of a constitutional straitjacket the new rule will create.

http://www.aclu.org/scotus/2007term/35797prs20080626.html

Werewolf

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2008, 05:33:41 PM »
Quote
What do you mean? Besides there belief in what the 2A is supposed to mean they still fight to protect the others. And I have read that they are slowly coming to accept it for what it truly means, read about it in one of my copies of the Reason magazine.

The ACLU fights to destroy America.  The people they "protect" are merely stalking horses to advance their destructive radical agenda.


Elaborate, please.

They refuse to touch Second Amendment rights, but jump to the defense of execrable slime like NAMBLA.
Not so strange a stance by the ACLU. Imagine if you will the ultimate fate of the USA when/if organizations like NAMBLA are main streamed and accepted as perfectly normal by the general population.

Now imagine that the 2nd amendment is accepted, respected and people actually begin to exercise the right to keep and bear arms as was intended. What would the ultimate fate of the dream that is America be.

Which fate do you think that the ACLU prefers?
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longeyes

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2008, 08:32:12 PM »
Let's cut to the chase: the ACLU has two current mad loves--gay rights and anything that subverts Christianity.  I'll let y'all decide if the two agendas might be conjoined somehow.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2008, 08:38:27 PM »
the ACLU has two current mad loves--gay rights and anything that subverts Christianity. 

True, that.

freakazoid

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2008, 09:48:31 PM »
Oh noes, gay rights.  rolleyes
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MicroBalrog

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2008, 10:00:57 PM »
Quote
Not so strange a stance by the ACLU. Imagine if you will the ultimate fate of the USA when/if organizations like NAMBLA are main streamed and accepted as perfectly normal by the general population.

You're arguing the ACLU supports the complete elimination of age of consent laws? And concentration camps for the Jews, too?  grin

Seriously, just because they support someone's free speech rights - and yes, advocating the repeal or modification of current law is at the very core of free speech, that's what free speech is for.

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De Selby

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2008, 10:05:33 PM »
Check the ratio of leftist 1A suits they file vs. conservative or religious 1A suits.


Yes, but the precedent set is good for everyone. 1A suits are 1A suits, they're not "unAmerican", I'd think. And they've made an excellent job with "Busted".

This is exactly why the ACLU is actually pretty good overall-they can't jury rig the court systems, so where they succeed, it's good for everybody.

The ACLU's position on firearms rights is irrelevant, because the ACLU doesn't give free legal services in support of laws banning guns.  They can believe and spout whatever they want-it's where they focus their legal resources that matters to the rest of us.

There is no question that the ACLU has done excellent work for free speech, freedom of religion, and freedom from government intrusion.  As far as I'm concerned, an alien from mars could be doing that work and I'll support it.

As far as its founders-please folks.  George Orwell was a communist who went to war with a mission of "shooting a fascist"; Thomas Jefferson was a great admirer of the French revolution, and Ronald Reagan sold guns to theocratic Iran.  It's the results of people's actions we should be concerned with, not their dreams.
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roo_ster

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2008, 05:25:37 AM »
Motivations do matter, as do ideas.

Just because David Duke/Hamas/Robert Byrd treat old folks with respect or are nice to kittens does not eliminate the responsibility for past deeds and words.

The ACLU is/was part of the secular, anti-American, progressive enterprise in the USA.  Its efforts have helped to pave the way toward the restrictions, regulations, and general loss of liberty we have experienced in the 20th and 21st centuries.

This is an organization that litigates against the interest of American citizens in favor of illegal aliens and non-citizens.  This is an organization that litigates in favor of increased social welfare / socialist policies at the expense of tax-paying citizens.

It is no wonder it is anti-RKBA / Second Amendment.  One only has to reference Baldwin's words:
"When that power of the working class is once achieved, as it has been only in the Soviet Union, I am for maintaining it by any means whatever."
"Yes, and they would accept  regretfully, of course  the necessity of dictatorship while the job of reorganizing society on a socialist basis is being done."

It is much easier to impose dictatorship and preserve it with violence if the gov't has a monopoly on the most effective implements of violence.

Also, it is easy to see that RNB and his intellectual cohorts do not have a love of country (or at least the country known as "America").  One only has to read their words.
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roo_ster

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Manedwolf

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2008, 05:29:17 AM »
Ever wonder why habitual pedophile sex offenders aren't locked up for life, but are encouraged to "rejoin the community"? Another was just arrested here, again, for this time running into a yard and grabbing little kids to fondle them.

Ever wonder why chain gangs went away? A great deterrent, and a great way to get the most unpleasant road work done?

Ever wonder why hardcore violent crime prisoners get things like weight benches, so they can be even more dangerous when they come out?

ACLU.

MicroBalrog

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2008, 05:33:19 AM »
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Ever wonder why chain gangs went away? A great deterrent, and a great way to get the most unpleasant road work done?

And also known as "slave labor" to most of us.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Manedwolf

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2008, 05:35:52 AM »
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Ever wonder why chain gangs went away? A great deterrent, and a great way to get the most unpleasant road work done?

And also known as "slave labor" to most of us.


Taking some of the most violent offenders and making them do a shift of road work is slave labor? Your definition is excessive.

MicroBalrog

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2008, 05:41:24 AM »
Quote
Ever wonder why chain gangs went away? A great deterrent, and a great way to get the most unpleasant road work done?

And also known as "slave labor" to most of us.


Taking some of the most violent offenders and making them do a shift of road work is slave labor? Your definition is excessive.

Look.

Quite possibly, in a society where the people who go into prison are burglars, rapists, arsonists and murderers, I'd accept putting them on the roads, toiling heavily away (though I'd prefer to just lock them up for real, extended periods of time).

But!

In the Western Society you and I share, people who are 'caught' with a piece of metal the wrong shape go into prison, people who grow the wrong plants or have sex with the wrong people go into prison.

It has become way, way too easy to define more and more new things as 'crimes'.

So in this real world in which we both live, I oppose giving the government the ability to also profit from defining more things as crimes.


Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2008, 05:48:16 AM »
How is it profiting to have them do road work?

And have you ever looked at the profiles of the sort of people they put on chain gangs?

MicroBalrog

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2008, 05:52:53 AM »
How is it profiting to have them do road work?

To the extent that you save whatever it would have cost you to hire a separate, free, person, to do the job you get the criminal to do.

[quote
And have you ever looked at the profiles of the sort of people they put on chain gangs?
[/quote]

AFAIK, they put all sorts of people on chain gangs.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Silver Bullet

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2008, 05:53:34 AM »
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Ever wonder why chain gangs went away?

Not here in Arizona.  Sheriff Joe puts prisoners to work in chain gangs, including female chain gangs.

Manedwolf

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2008, 05:54:08 AM »
How is it profiting to have them do road work?

To the extent that you save whatever it would have cost you to hire a separate, free, person, to do the job you get the criminal to do.


So...it saves taxpayer dollars. And this is somehow bad?

MicroBalrog

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2008, 06:01:19 AM »
How is it profiting to have them do road work?

To the extent that you save whatever it would have cost you to hire a separate, free, person, to do the job you get the criminal to do.


So...it saves taxpayer dollars. And this is somehow bad?


Yes. It is.

I don't want it to be cheaper for society to throw people who've done nobody any harm in prison.  Again, too large a proportion of prisoners (not a majority, but still too large) are in there for drug offenses, gun possession, XYZ possession, etc. etc. If society's urge to throw people in prison for such things cannot be moderated by an appeal to the injustice involved, let it at least be moderated by the cost.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2008, 06:04:29 AM »
Let's see. Here, at least, no license is required to have a gun in your home, and a CCW costs $10 and not being a criminal. So if someone is carrying without that, or is a felon in possession, they should be in jail.

If someone sells drugs, they should be in jail. Or executed.

So I have no problem at all with chain gangs. We need more people like that Sheriff Joe, who does the chain gangs and pink fatigues. It's a deterrent!

I am sick of coddling criminals. I have never been in trouble with the law, because I do not do anything wrong. It's not hard! Just keep out of trouble, don't violate the rights of others, and don't be stupid. That's too hard?

A society of Law and Order is something we once had, but now we're too worried about how such punishments make vicious animals "feel", so they run all over us.


MicroBalrog

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2008, 06:06:53 AM »
Quote
Let's see. Here, at least, no license is required to have a gun in your home, and a CCW costs $10 and not being a criminal. So if someone is carrying without that, or is a felon in possession, they should be in jail.

If someone sells drugs, they should be in jail. Or executed.

So, a person who snaps off a front end off a shotgun should be made to do hard labor to help you pay for imprisoning him?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: ACLU and Heller
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2008, 06:07:39 AM »
Quote
Let's see. Here, at least, no license is required to have a gun in your home, and a CCW costs $10 and not being a criminal. So if someone is carrying without that, or is a felon in possession, they should be in jail.

If someone sells drugs, they should be in jail. Or executed.

So, a person who snaps off a front end off a shotgun should be made to do hard labor to help you pay for imprisoning him?

Yup!

Of course, you're still ignoring how many violent criminals end up on chain gangs. But I guess that's convenient to ignore to prop up your argument.