ACLU and Heller

[MicroBalrog]

Of course, you're still ignoring how many violent criminals end up on chain gangs. But I guess that's convenient to ignore to prop up your argument.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm genuinely ignorant of it. Further, it is irrelevant to my argument, because my argument is not that innocent people end up on chain gangs now. My argument is that if the practice becomes mainstream again, society will become accepting of throwing all 'felons' into chain gangs.

Yup!

And you have... absolutely no moral problem with this?

I suggest we should politely agree to disagree here.

[Manedwolf]

I think you're forgetting the fact that I cheer for the Marshals whenever the local Free Staters do something asinine, obviously illegal and/or dangerous to make a point and get their asses thrown in jail. Again.

[MicroBalrog]

I think you're forgetting the fact that I cheer for the Marshals whenever the local Free Staters do something asinine, obviously illegal and/or dangerous to make a point and get their asses thrown in jail. Again.

I will only say that this bewilders me. Again.

[Balog]

I agree that a lot of things that are felonies shouldn't be. I also agree that criminals should be forced to do hard, unpleasent labour. It's all about deterrence folks.

The answer to people being in jail for silly non-crimes is not making prison soft and fluffy.

[MicroBalrog]

That was not my point, Balog.

The issue is not 'making prison soft and fluffy'.

Prison is not a hotel.

It is not supposed to be soft and fluffy.

However:

I don't want it to be cheaper for society to throw people who've done nobody any harm in prison.  Again, too large a proportion of prisoners (not a majority, but still too large) are in there for drug offenses, gun possession, XYZ possession, etc. etc. If society's urge to throw people in prison for such things cannot be moderated by an appeal to the injustice involved, let it at least be moderated by the cost.

[Manedwolf]

The ACLU has done their best to make it soft and fluffy.

Fought for cable TV.

Fought for workout equipment.

Fought against work details.

Fought against nutraloaf.

And on and on and on...

Prisoners get it much, much, much nicer than a homeless person in a shelter. Is that right?

[MicroBalrog]

What is nutraloaf?

No, it's not right. But it's silly to think that this is the cause for crime.

[Manedwolf]

What is nutraloaf?

Google is your friend.

[MicroBalrog]

What is nutraloaf?

Google is your friend.

Googled. WTFing at everybody involved - the prisoners who sue over it and the people who feed it to them.

[roo_ster]

There were times (notice past tense?  I sure do and want to keep it PAST tense!) when nutriloaf would have been an improvement over what I was consuming.

[Manedwolf]

What is nutraloaf?

Google is your friend.

Googled. WTFing at everybody involved - the prisoners who sue over it and the people who feed it to them.

Then what would you feed to the lifers who try to stab guards and themselves with any utensils given to them, even a spoon?

[Werewolf]

Not so strange a stance by the ACLU. Imagine if you will the ultimate fate of the USA when/if organizations like NAMBLA are main streamed and accepted as perfectly normal by the general population.

You're arguing the ACLU supports the complete elimination of age of consent laws? And concentration camps for the Jews, too? 

Seriously, just because they support someone's free speech rights - and yes, advocating the repeal or modification of current law is at the very core of free speech, that's what free speech is for.

No - I'm arguing that the ACLU by it's actions supports NAMBLA and it's actions. NAMBLA's actions are abhorent. Defending them is abhorrent. Even more so than those of the NAZI's. I am perfectly OK with the ACLU standing up and defending a NAZI"s right to free speech. I would not be alright with the ACLU standing up and defending the actions that NAZI's call for.

There is a really big difference. But then I think you know that...

[MicroBalrog]

What is nutraloaf?

Google is your friend.

Googled. WTFing at everybody involved - the prisoners who sue over it and the people who feed it to them.

Then what would you feed to the lifers who try to stab guards and themselves with any utensils given to them, even a spoon?

...this is seriously a non-issue, really. I don't care one way or the other what the prisoners eat, though if I were choosing the menu, it'd be something healthy, and yet at least bland rather than deliberately hot or horribly disgusting. And plastic safety spoons exist for a reason. This is the reason.

No - I'm arguing that the ACLU by it's actions supports NAMBLA and it's actions.

1. Protecting the free speech of someone does not equate supporting the policies they advocate, "no matter how unpopular or wrong-headed." [Quoting Heller here].

2. Are you seriously implying that socialism somehow requires pedophiles running rampant through society?

[De Selby]

Ever wonder why habitual pedophile sex offenders aren't locked up for life, but are encouraged to "rejoin the community"? Another was just arrested here, again, for this time running into a yard and grabbing little kids to fondle them.

Ever wonder why chain gangs went away? A great deterrent, and a great way to get the most unpleasant road work done?

Ever wonder why hardcore violent crime prisoners get things like weight benches, so they can be even more dangerous when they come out?

ACLU.

Okay, and there are some things that come with this:  Due to the ACLU, the government has to prove more and do more to keep you in prison....so it's not as easy to throw people in jail, and the evidentiary rules and standards of proof are not as lax.  You got that along with the ACLU arguing that prisoners should not be kept in Turkish-style dungeons.

FYI-chain gangs went away because they were in fact slave labor.  Whenever someone needed labor on the cheap, the local force would routinely round up every black person in sight for violating the various vagrancy laws, and then they'd have a new slave force...just like the good old days.

That's why chain gangs were done in, not because we like to be nice to prisoners.

And you can thank groups like the ACLU for doing away with that form of 20th century slavery.  Which is exactly what it was, along with the "vagrancy" laws that effectively criminalized being socially unwanted and/or the wrong color.

[Werewolf]

2. Are you seriously implying that socialism somehow requires pedophiles running rampant through society?

What?  You mean it doesn't?

[xavier fremboe]

1. Protecting the free speech of someone does not equate supporting the policies they advocate, "no matter how unpopular or wrong-headed." [Quoting Heller here].

I would argue that actively protecting the free speech of Nazis goes a bit past respecting the rights of wrong-headed individuals.  I can agree that Nazis have a 1a right to spew filth, but I won't lift a finger to help them do it. 

I've nothing to say about NAMBLA members, as this is a polite forum.

[longeyes]

Prisons are a modern invention.  The ancients preferred severe corporal punishment and/or exile.  Who is really right?